If You Could Initiate One New Amtrak Route..........
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henryj
Conductor
I am curious as to why a Chi-Florida train via Atlanta is fantasy? Aren't there multiple ways to get to Atlanta from Chicago? Whos track are we talking about using that is fantasy? I looked at several routes, one via Danville, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga to Atlanta using the CSX. The other via the CONO route to Memphis then via Birmingham to Atlanta. Another followed the NS to Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga to Atlanta. All of these seem feasible to me. What am I missing?
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I'm thinking the same thing. Maybe it is one train that would be great but just won't happen. Don't know.
NW cannonball
Conductor
I don't know or understand the specifics of what rails are available - but if there is a way to connect Atlanta - Memphis - Saint Louis and points west, that would seem to be a winner - what other major population centers could be served seems worthy of discussion -alternate ways to tie in to the East Coast, Texas, and West Coast service?
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VentureForth
Engineer
This may sound silly, but a train that cuts straight across Tennessee would be nice. Salisbury - Ashville - Knoxville - Nashville - Memphis. Oh - I guess that's I-40.
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The problems getting a Chicago-Florida train through Atlanta:
- Both of the routes into Atlanta from the north -- NS and CSX -- are at 100% capacity with freight already.
- Of the routes south from Atlanta, the only one that's not already at 100% capacity with freight (without taking a circuitous detour) is the ex-CofG. Long history on that line. Even so, at Macon you'd have to use the ex-GS&F southward and now you're back to capacity issues again.
- The existing station in Atlanta is in the wrong place, no matter what route in and out of Atlanta you choose.
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henryj
Conductor
Well we are talking fantasy land here anyway as Amtrak has no equipment nor any desire to expand routes. Their only input for a Chicago-Florida train was to combine the Capitol with the Star and route you through DC. I took a steam excursion over the NS 'rat hole' years ago and they have it in prime shape. Many tunnels were daylighted and it has a lot of double track. Yep it's very busy, but they managed to push us through between freights and they could do the same with Amtrak. Atlanta has toyed with plans to build a new train station to replace the little surburban station they now use which would alleviate the station problem. All the major rail routes are busy and at capacity so that's really not the issue. The issue is just how much will you have to pay to get 'your' train expedited. And of course which route to take, the CSX or the NS. Also you have to decide if you can make it from chicago to Jax in 24 hrs or if you want a two nights out train. One leaves Chicago in the morning the longer schedule leaves late at night. If you just combine it with the CONO through Memphis, that route would be two nights out. All this is interesting speculation, but of course first we need an organization that has an interest in running LD trains and has the money to do so.
Notelvis
Conductor
That would be a great battle cry -
"Restore the Tennessee Central!"
Otherwise, the train can't go where the tracks no longer exist!
Cincinnati-Chattanooga isn't the problem, and anyway Amtrak would almost certainly elect Cincinnati-Chattanooga on CSX via Louisville and Nashville because of greater population. Chattanooga-Atlanta (mostly single track) is the problem. I've been up and down that NS line a lot. The occasional steam special gets treatment that daily Amtraks do not. I disagree with your perspective about capacity. Take a long look at http://www.dot.state...Tonnage_Map.pdf . There's no such thing as paying to get your train expedited with traffic levels like that.
As a former resident of Atlanta I've been hearing this talk about a new station for 30 years. It's no closer to happening today than it was in 1982.
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I saw the post regarding "Where would you initiate a new Amtrak route, and why." This is my dream route.
I would really like to see Amtrak run a service from Philadelphia, PA to Chicago, IL via Erie, PA. The route would run as follows:
1. Travel west from Philly to Harrisburg on the current Amtrak Keystone Line, with stops at Paoli, Lancaster, Elizabethtown, and Harrisburg.
2. The train would then travel up the NS Buffalo Line from Harrisburg, PA to Emporium, PA. Stops would be at the following cities: Millersburg, Sunbury, Williamsport, Lock Haven, and Emporium.
3. Route would then proceed west from Emporium, PA to Saint Mary's PA along what is now a rail-trail. The tracks have been removed, but a portion of the ROW has been set aside should rail service again be desired. Amtrak could provide funding to rebuild this portion.
4. After a stop at Saint Marys, the route would continue west to Ridgway along the Buffalo and Pittsburgh (ex. PRR and Allegheny and Eastern) line from Saint Marys to Erie. Stops would be at Ridgway, Kane, Warren, Youngsville, Corry, Waterford, and then finally Erie.
5.A connector would be built in Erie from the end of the line at the former Hammermill Plant location (right now, there is only a junction here between the BPRR and CSX), and join the CSX. There used to a dedicated PRR platform at the Erie station for Erie-Philadelphia trains. Only this time, the train would use the same platform the Lake Shore Limited uses.
6. Train would leave Philadelphia around 8:00 AM, and arrive in Erie around 10 PM, and then arrive in Chicago around 9:00 AM the next day.
7. Return trip from Chicago to Philly would also leave at 8:00 AM and arrive at Philly 9:00 the next day.
8. This service would run twice or thrice a week in each direction.
9. On-board services would include Amfleet II coaches, a dinette, and sleeper, with a dome car/sightseeing lounge in the fall months.
10. Like the Keystone Service and Pennsylvanian, this train would be supported with funds from PennDOT.
11. The name of this train would be "Allegheny Limited." Since it travels through both the Northern Allegheny Mountains and Allegheny National Forest.
12. Simple, covered shelters (with an ADA accessible platform) with heat and air conditioning would be constructed along the tracks in the communities without passenger rail service. Old railroad stations could be renovated to serve passengers as well.
Much of the trackage between Harrisburg and Erie is single track, with a few passing sidings (mostly between Emporium and Harrisburg). Between Ridgway and Erie, only a couple freight trains run daily, most of the freight carried is wood products (for a paper plant in Johnsonburg) and oil (for a refinery in Warren). This would undoubtedly be Amtrak's most scenic route, if not one of the most scenic. Especially in autumn, when the mountains become ablaze with colors. The line skirts the Susquehanna, West Branch Susquehanna, Sinnemahoning Creek, and even the Allegheny River.
I believe that a passenger train would provide a cheap (and scenic) mode of transportation for the isolated communities of Central and Northern PA. It would provide a through service to both Philadelphia (and the rest of the Northeast) and well as the Midwest. It would also be popular in the fall because of the autumn colors.
I would really like to see Amtrak run a service from Philadelphia, PA to Chicago, IL via Erie, PA. The route would run as follows:
1. Travel west from Philly to Harrisburg on the current Amtrak Keystone Line, with stops at Paoli, Lancaster, Elizabethtown, and Harrisburg.
2. The train would then travel up the NS Buffalo Line from Harrisburg, PA to Emporium, PA. Stops would be at the following cities: Millersburg, Sunbury, Williamsport, Lock Haven, and Emporium.
3. Route would then proceed west from Emporium, PA to Saint Mary's PA along what is now a rail-trail. The tracks have been removed, but a portion of the ROW has been set aside should rail service again be desired. Amtrak could provide funding to rebuild this portion.
4. After a stop at Saint Marys, the route would continue west to Ridgway along the Buffalo and Pittsburgh (ex. PRR and Allegheny and Eastern) line from Saint Marys to Erie. Stops would be at Ridgway, Kane, Warren, Youngsville, Corry, Waterford, and then finally Erie.
5.A connector would be built in Erie from the end of the line at the former Hammermill Plant location (right now, there is only a junction here between the BPRR and CSX), and join the CSX. There used to a dedicated PRR platform at the Erie station for Erie-Philadelphia trains. Only this time, the train would use the same platform the Lake Shore Limited uses.
6. Train would leave Philadelphia around 8:00 AM, and arrive in Erie around 10 PM, and then arrive in Chicago around 9:00 AM the next day.
7. Return trip from Chicago to Philly would also leave at 8:00 AM and arrive at Philly 9:00 the next day.
8. This service would run twice or thrice a week in each direction.
9. On-board services would include Amfleet II coaches, a dinette, and sleeper, with a dome car/sightseeing lounge in the fall months.
10. Like the Keystone Service and Pennsylvanian, this train would be supported with funds from PennDOT.
11. The name of this train would be "Allegheny Limited." Since it travels through both the Northern Allegheny Mountains and Allegheny National Forest.
12. Simple, covered shelters (with an ADA accessible platform) with heat and air conditioning would be constructed along the tracks in the communities without passenger rail service. Old railroad stations could be renovated to serve passengers as well.
Much of the trackage between Harrisburg and Erie is single track, with a few passing sidings (mostly between Emporium and Harrisburg). Between Ridgway and Erie, only a couple freight trains run daily, most of the freight carried is wood products (for a paper plant in Johnsonburg) and oil (for a refinery in Warren). This would undoubtedly be Amtrak's most scenic route, if not one of the most scenic. Especially in autumn, when the mountains become ablaze with colors. The line skirts the Susquehanna, West Branch Susquehanna, Sinnemahoning Creek, and even the Allegheny River.
I believe that a passenger train would provide a cheap (and scenic) mode of transportation for the isolated communities of Central and Northern PA. It would provide a through service to both Philadelphia (and the rest of the Northeast) and well as the Midwest. It would also be popular in the fall because of the autumn colors.
henryj
Conductor
Nice map. Thanks. Do you have any for Tennessee, Ill and Indiana? The CSX route I was looking at was via Evansville and Nashville then Chattanooga. Nice to hear info from someone that has actually been there. Louisville is off to the east out of the way. Do you think they would take that roundabout route? I was looking at a one night out train, Chicago to Jax in 23hours. If you do two nights out then you might as well take the Capitol/Star connection or use the CONO route to Memphis then cut over rather then try and reinstate a whole new route. For just one train a day Atlanta really doesn't need a new station. If they were to get more service then they might finally act. Houston talked about a new 'intermodal' station linked to the new light rail line. But with the only train service being the three times a week Sunset, that was dropped and forgotten.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
I still don't see a problem except for the heavily trafficked red section out of ATL. This route should not be that hard: Chattanooga-Dalton-Calhoun-Cartersville-Marietta-Atlanta-Griffin-Macon-Jesup-Jacksonville. The biggest problem is Cartersville-Marietta-Atlanta, but that such a short section it would not be impossible to solve. New station in ATL would be another problm but even though it probably won't happen with current politicians, it could be built eventually. As long as it's reasonably possible, then all we need is the decision to do it.
What am I missing?
BTW, they could use the line through McCaysville, it looks to be in full service just light loads.
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Familiarity with railroad operations.
- Chattanooga-Cartersville: Most of the sidings are 10 mph, causing very slow meets. CSX runs all the train on this segment that it can.
- Cartersville-Tilford Yard: 28 miles of 30 or 35 mph max, with a substantial grade that bogs down freights. Numerous bridges, so it's expensive to add more second track or sidings. Notorious for delays.
- Tilford Yard through downtown Atlanta: speeds range from 10 to 30 mph max. Frequent delays to due freights entering/leaving Tilford as well as frequent NS traffic crossing CSX at Howell Tower.
- Atlanta-Griffin-Macon: Includes 88 miles of dark railroad, most of it 25 mph. Leg of elevated wye to Macon Union Station is gone. Slow running through Brosnan Yard to reach the junction for the Brunswick line.
- Macon-Jesup: 145 miles of dark railroad, currently 49 mph max although it probably would support 59 mph. Only two sidings along this entire segment.
T
TWA904
Guest
My route to initate that would cover gaps in the current system is starting in Miami going through Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, New Orleans,
Houston, Dallas, Amarillo, Denver, Sal Lake City, Prtland and ending in Seattle.
Houston, Dallas, Amarillo, Denver, Sal Lake City, Prtland and ending in Seattle.
Notelvis
Conductor
That route hosts a couple of tourist operations. The Blue Ridge Scenic Railroad operates between Blue Ridge, GA and McCaysville, GA. The Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum folks operate the 'Hiwassee River Rail Adventure' from a point a few miles outside of Etowah, TN to Copperhill, TN which is actually just a few hundred feet from where the Blue Ridge Scenic terminates. It's essentially one small town with the state line running through it. The north side is Copperhill and the south side is McCaysville.
I don't believe that there is any freight traffic at all on the portion of the route where the tourist trains operate..... or if there is, non of it runs 'through'. The section of track where it crosses the state line hasn't felt steel wheels in a decade or two.
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Acela150
Super Buff
Is it possible to put this in that other thread so we don't have two topics about dream routes.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
- Messages
- 8,508
Yes, it is possible.
dabrilloman
Service Attendant
One I would like to see would be Saint Paul-Souix Falls-Rapid City-Cheyenne-Denver. Call it maybe the Rapid City Runner? Being from Saint Paul, I would love to be able to go to the Black Hills by train. Plus it would serve an area of the country that has no service.
Swadian Hardcore
Engineer
If tourist trains can run on that route then I would expect that Amtrak can as well. As long as thaat loittle section across the state line is still in place, it could be checked and opened to traffic. Replacing rails for that tiny segment wouldn't be hard, either.
About the section past ATL, one could run through Cordele via Manchester or Macon then Waycross to JAX. If the section Waycroos to JAX has too much traffic, what about the line through Valdosta?
ArchBishop
Train Attendant
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2011
- Messages
- 46
My number one new route would be Kansas City - Denver, and would accept an extention of the current Missouri River Runner (St. Louis - Kansas City). This would give a mid route connection to the CZ, SWC and TE.
My number two new route, would be extending the Heartland Flyer as far north as Minneapolis, stops in Wichita, Topeka, Kansas City, Des Moines) This would also give a mid route connection to the EB, CZ, SWC and TE.
My number two new route, would be extending the Heartland Flyer as far north as Minneapolis, stops in Wichita, Topeka, Kansas City, Des Moines) This would also give a mid route connection to the EB, CZ, SWC and TE.
B
Ben
Guest
Based on market demand:
1. LA-Las Vegas
2. Houston-Dallas
3. Chicago-Atlanta-Miami
1. LA-Las Vegas
2. Houston-Dallas
3. Chicago-Atlanta-Miami
Ok, I went and checked. Right now, FrontRunner runs from Ogden to SLC. The plan is to extend it to Provo by the end of the year; there are longer-term plans to extend service to Brigham City and Nephi (which would put the length of the line well over 100 miles).
henryj
Conductor
This is a good route, but it needs to go through DFW rather then Lubbock and Killeen. You are missing some 5-6 million people by diverting to that route. Lubbock could be connected by a bus to Amarillo. The only real bottle neck on the route is the Colorado Springs to Palmer Lake section of single track. BNSF now runs directionally between Pueblo and Amarillo using two different routes. You can connect Houston either through Fort Worth using the BNSF route or through Dallas using either the BNSF or UP routes. The BNSF route through Fort Worth was the Lone Star route so it is passenger train ready. The other routes would require some work. The rest of the route north to Denver is in excellent shape and is fully signalled now. It's just full of coal trains. The UP route north of Denver and across Wyoming is multi-track. If you reincarnated the Desert Wind at the same time it could connect in Ogden. The CZ could bring over cars from Chicago to connect in Denver. I would not even try and make any connections with the CZ in SLC. Here is a schedule.
Texas Texas
Pioneer Pioneer
lv VANCOUVER BC arr 10:45 PM
7:30 AM lv SEATTLE arr 6:20 PM
11:00 AM arr PORTLAND lv 2:50 PM
11:30 AM lv PORTLAND(PT) arr 1:00 PM
10:55 PM arr BOISE lv 2:40 AM
11:00 PM lv BOISE arr 2:35 AM
1:20 AM arr SHOSHONE(MT) lv 12:40 AM
11:00 PM lv SUN VALLEY arr 3:00 AM
1:00 AM arr SHOSHONE lv 1:00 AM
1:25 AM lv SHOSHONE arr 12:35 AM
3:10 AM arr POCATELLO lv 10:50 PM
12:00 AM lv WEST YELLOWSTONE arr 2:00 AM
3:00 AM arr POCATELLO lv 11:00 PM
3:25 AM lv POCATELLO arr 10:35 PM
6:10 AM arr OGDEN lv 7:50 PM
6:30 AM lv OGDEN arr 7:30 PM
10:20 AM arr GREEN RIVER lv 3:40 PM
10:25 AM lv GREEN RIVER arr 3:35 PM
3:55 PM arr CHEYENNE(BOWIE) lv 10:05 AM
4:00 PM lv CHEYENNE(BOWIE) arr 10:00 AM
6:00 PM arr DENVER lv 8:15 AM
8:10 PM lv DENVER arr 7:15 AM
6:14 AM lv OMAHA lv 10:39 PM
3:50 PM arr CHICAGO(CT) lv 2:00 PM
6:45 PM lv DENVER arr 7:30 AM
8:30 PM arr COLORADO SPRINGS lv 5:45 AM
8:45 PM lv COLORADO SPRINGS arr 5:30 AM
10:00 PM lv PUEBLO lv 4:30 AM
6:00 AM arr AMARILLO lv 9:45 PM
6:30 AM lv AMARILLO arr 9:15 PM
1:30 PM arr FT WORTH lv 3:00 PM
2:00 PM lv FT WORTH arr 1:30 PM
3:00 PM arr DALLAS lv 12:30 PM
2:30 PM lv FT WORTH arr 1:48 PM
5:03 PM arr TEMPLE lv 11:15 AM
5:08 PM lv TEMPLE arr 11:10 AM
6:38 PM lv BRENHAM lv 9:40 AM
7:51 PM lv ROSENBERG lv 8:14 AM
9:08 PM arr HOUSTON lv 7:30 AM
N
Nathanael
Guest
If I'm *dreaming*, and biasing towards things I'd use myself, NYC-Scranton-Binghamton-Cortland-Syracuse.
If I'm restricting myself to routes which have *been suggested*, and biasing towards things I'd use myself, the Vermont "western route" from Albany, NY to Burlington, VT.
If I were looking at it from the point of view of the Colorado resident:
Fort Collins-Loveland-Longmont-Boulder-Denver, CO
If I were looking at it from the point of view of a Minnesota or Wisconsin resident:
Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis
If I were looking at it from the point of view of an Arizonan:
Phoenix service
If I were looking at it from the point of view of an Ohioan
Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati
If I were operating strictly from Amtrak's business perspective:
Detroit-Toledo-New York City
(Of the nonexistent train routes requested by callers to Amtrak who haven't looked up which routes exist, Detroit to New York is the one most often requested. The necessary additional trackage is very small compared to other possible routes. No additional stations are needed. It would relieve capacty constraints on the Capitol Limited and/or Lake Shore Limited.)
Agreed with others: the current network is so skeletal that there are a huge number of needed additional routes.
But if I were actually put in as Amtrak exec and told "Congress has authorized you to add any one new route, all expenses paid, but you don't get to build greenfield high-speed rail", it would be Detroit-New York. I think it has the best *network effects*.
If I'm restricting myself to routes which have *been suggested*, and biasing towards things I'd use myself, the Vermont "western route" from Albany, NY to Burlington, VT.
If I were looking at it from the point of view of the Colorado resident:
Fort Collins-Loveland-Longmont-Boulder-Denver, CO
If I were looking at it from the point of view of a Minnesota or Wisconsin resident:
Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis
If I were looking at it from the point of view of an Arizonan:
Phoenix service
If I were looking at it from the point of view of an Ohioan
Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati
If I were operating strictly from Amtrak's business perspective:
Detroit-Toledo-New York City
(Of the nonexistent train routes requested by callers to Amtrak who haven't looked up which routes exist, Detroit to New York is the one most often requested. The necessary additional trackage is very small compared to other possible routes. No additional stations are needed. It would relieve capacty constraints on the Capitol Limited and/or Lake Shore Limited.)
Agreed with others: the current network is so skeletal that there are a huge number of needed additional routes.
But if I were actually put in as Amtrak exec and told "Congress has authorized you to add any one new route, all expenses paid, but you don't get to build greenfield high-speed rail", it would be Detroit-New York. I think it has the best *network effects*.
N
Nathanael
Guest
I'm going to throw out a few different *methods* of coming up with suitable train routes to add:
- Method 1: RIDERSHIP.
Pick big cities. Connect them to other big cities, first nearby ones, then faraway ones. Have lots of frequency.
This method gets you Phoenix downtown service, Phoenix-LA, Phoenix-Tuscon;
Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati;
Detroit-Toledo-(eastward);
Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis;
Quad Cities - Omaha via every significant city in Iowa;
Fort Collins-Denver-Pueblo via every significant city in Colorado;
etc.
This is the approach which state governments have taken when they fund rail service themselves... except that they have a strong bias towards only connecting *in-state* cities, or perhaps cities right on the border. So Illinois doesn't make the effort to get to Janesville or even Indianapolis.
- Method 2: COVERAGE.
This is what gets you very expensive routes like the Pioneer.
- Method 3: POLITICAL WILL.
This is effectively what has determined which states have good rail service and which don't. South Carolina has no political will to have rail, and neither does Mississippi, so they have very little; North Carolina and Florida have the political will, so they have more and more rail.
- Method 4: MONEY/EFFICIENCY.
Since very few routes have been net contributors to Amtrak's balance sheet, this hasn't been very relevant. Obviously ridership matters, and political will matters because local attitudes towards trains affects ridership! But there is one other basic principle of "efficiency" in adding new service, and it's simple: leverage existing resources as much as possible. So, if you can extend a train on the NEC along the route of the Crescent (opening 0 new stations), you are likely to have a good monetary result. If you can double service on a one-a-day train, that's likely to have a pretty good result.
I personally favor Detroit-Toledo-NY because it (1) connects cities so that it would get lots of ridership (2) adds coverage (3) is anchored in places which have political will and (4) leverages existing resources a *lot*. Also, I kind of feel like, if we can't get something as simple as Detroit-Toledo added, many of the really good long-distance routes and corridors are completely implausible.
I've personally watched people at the Amtrak counter ask about going to Detroit, be told that the only Detroit-Toledo connection was a bus, and turn away and go to the airport. I think Detroit-Toledo would be extremely worth it.
- Method 1: RIDERSHIP.
Pick big cities. Connect them to other big cities, first nearby ones, then faraway ones. Have lots of frequency.
This method gets you Phoenix downtown service, Phoenix-LA, Phoenix-Tuscon;
Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati;
Detroit-Toledo-(eastward);
Milwaukee-Madison-Minneapolis;
Quad Cities - Omaha via every significant city in Iowa;
Fort Collins-Denver-Pueblo via every significant city in Colorado;
etc.
This is the approach which state governments have taken when they fund rail service themselves... except that they have a strong bias towards only connecting *in-state* cities, or perhaps cities right on the border. So Illinois doesn't make the effort to get to Janesville or even Indianapolis.
- Method 2: COVERAGE.
This is what gets you very expensive routes like the Pioneer.
- Method 3: POLITICAL WILL.
This is effectively what has determined which states have good rail service and which don't. South Carolina has no political will to have rail, and neither does Mississippi, so they have very little; North Carolina and Florida have the political will, so they have more and more rail.
- Method 4: MONEY/EFFICIENCY.
Since very few routes have been net contributors to Amtrak's balance sheet, this hasn't been very relevant. Obviously ridership matters, and political will matters because local attitudes towards trains affects ridership! But there is one other basic principle of "efficiency" in adding new service, and it's simple: leverage existing resources as much as possible. So, if you can extend a train on the NEC along the route of the Crescent (opening 0 new stations), you are likely to have a good monetary result. If you can double service on a one-a-day train, that's likely to have a pretty good result.
I personally favor Detroit-Toledo-NY because it (1) connects cities so that it would get lots of ridership (2) adds coverage (3) is anchored in places which have political will and (4) leverages existing resources a *lot*. Also, I kind of feel like, if we can't get something as simple as Detroit-Toledo added, many of the really good long-distance routes and corridors are completely implausible.
I've personally watched people at the Amtrak counter ask about going to Detroit, be told that the only Detroit-Toledo connection was a bus, and turn away and go to the airport. I think Detroit-Toledo would be extremely worth it.
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