Jacksonville Terminal

[Neil_M]

Looks like Florida is getting some sort of funding from State Parks. Fees recently went up from $3 per car to $5, and they are about to go up again to $6. And if you're a season pass holder, they will charge $2 per person in your car.
Why can't states budget away for a rainy year???

Because we live in a democracy.

That's the most ludicrous thing you have ever said on here!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Looks like Florida is getting some sort of funding from State Parks. Fees recently went up from $3 per car to $5, and they are about to go up again to $6. And if you're a season pass holder, they will charge $2 per person in your car.
Why can't states budget away for a rainy year???

Because we live in a democracy.

That's the most ludicrous thing you have ever said on here!

Not at all. In our democracy, we elect people. We elect people for delivering what we want. So what they do is deliver things we want (spending) while trying to avoid doing what we don't want (actually paying for it).

 

[VentureForth]

We don't live in a democracy, though. We live in representative republic where our leaders are chosen democratically. The point is, there should be laws that allow for average budgeting over a period of 10 years (which is the average recession/expansion cycle). Though, yes, a democratic electorate (Not "Democrat") could then change the law, it should be harder to change the law than it is to elect boneheads that change the law.

At least that way, the park access fees don't jump 100% over two years, but perhaps an even 3% per year or something to keep up with inflation.

 

[Ocklawaha]

We don't live in a democracy, though. We live in representative republic where our leaders are chosen democratically. The point is, there should be laws that allow for average budgeting over a period of 10 years (which is the average recession/expansion cycle). Though, yes, a democratic electorate (Not "Democrat") could then change the law, it should be harder to change the law than it is to elect boneheads that change the law.
At least that way, the park access fees don't jump 100% over two years, but perhaps an even 3% per year or something to keep up with inflation.

Money? Well yes there is a dedicated source that is now in debate for Jacksonville. Several years back the city voted a sales tax to make some massive improvements, Parks, Roads, JTC, Courthouse, Arena and mass transit. There is $100 Million still sitting in the bank earmarked for "Transit Right Of Way," but the Council could change that to read "streetcar" etc. on a whim. What I think will happen is this:

Streetcar: Funded 100% local, in house, heritage style cars

Jacksonville Terminal: Funded within normal guidelines + stimulus money.

FEC Passenger Trains: Amtrak, Stimulus and $80 Million the state has already agreed to, maybe sooner then later too.

Bus Rapid Transit: Funded within normal FTA guidelines and subject to being cut back to more of a quality bus, express bus, HOV concept.

Skyway Monorail: This could go 100% stimulus if the Transit Authority would just speak to the City and get after it. I'd expect it to roughly double in route miles. Stadium, Riverside - Brooklyn, San Marco are almost sure bets for expansion.

I also expect that taking a page from the many stops within the 60 mile Orlando - Kissimmee Amtrak line, you'll see Jacksonville set up a cry for rebuilding the Yukon/NAS/Orange Park station, as well as FEC's South Jacksonville Station (somewhere in San Marco) probably on Atlantic Bl.

OCKLAWAHA

 

[AmtrakWPK]

the many stops within the 60 mile Orlando - Kissimmee Amtrak line

???? It's WAY less than 60 miles between Orlando and Kissimmee, and there are NO intermediate stops between the two. If you are referring to what is now probably the dead SunRail commuter train corridor they had proposed, that would have run from Amtrak Deland to Poinciana (a bit South/West of Kissimmee Amtrak, and would have included the Deland, Winter Park, Orlando, and Kissimmee Amtrak stations. So far as I am aware, it would NOT have added ANY Amtrak stations. I live a few minutes North of the WPK station. Also, of course, that line does NOT belong to Amtrak - it is part of the CSX "A" Line, which the State would have bought (that portion of it, anyway), as part of the SunRail deal.

 

[VentureForth]

I'm sure it's the commuter rail that OCKLAWAHA was referring to...

I hung out at Jacksonville on Friday and did some hanging around. I'll try to post a couple of pictures later. Is it CSX or FEC that has the double-track drawbridge over the St Johns?

I heard it was CSX (note the huge CSX headquarters right next door), but how far South do they go? The bridge sees pretty good action - about one train every two hours or so. I tried my hand at cloudy weather photography and didn't fare well. All I got were mis-exposured, poorly framed shots of a waterspout from the drawbridge. I'll try to post some links later.

 

[Neil_M]

Not at all. In our democracy, we elect people. We elect people for delivering what we want. So what they do is deliver things we want (spending) while trying to avoid doing what we don't want (actually paying for it).

That's what they want you to think, you vote them in and then people with more money and influence than you tell them what to do.

 

[Ocklawaha]

I'm sure it's the commuter rail that OCKLAWAHA was referring to...
I hung out at Jacksonville on Friday and did some hanging around. I'll try to post a couple of pictures later. Is it CSX or FEC that has the double-track drawbridge over the St Johns?

I heard it was CSX (note the huge CSX headquarters right next door), but how far South do they go? The bridge sees pretty good action - about one train every two hours or so. I tried my hand at cloudy weather photography and didn't fare well. All I got were mis-exposured, poorly framed shots of a waterspout from the drawbridge. I'll try to post some links later.

It is of course the line I was refering to. Sorry to disturb the perfection in my failure to put Deland in the mix, as was my intention. Of course I could have indluded the Deland branchline, the old depot that served as a bus station for years...Sanford, Rand yard, the Ice House, the old Shops, Paola Junction, the Sanford and Everglades Railroad, the Lake Charm branch or the old trackage out to "Truck Center", then the FEC bridge at Osceola, and the great old right of way out in Pennichaw, my favorite bridge from the Lee Cypress Days... etc... etc... But hey, who am I? I don't know.

The FEC owns and operates the St. Johns River Draw Bridge, the original single track bridge built right after Flagler took over and merged the various lines, (ie: Jacksonville-St. Augustine-East Palatka, East Palatka-Ormond-Daytona, Tocoi-St. Augustine, and a bit later, South Jacksonville-Hogan-Pablo Beach-Mayport) The current bridge was built as "The Great Florida Boom" ramped up and the FEC double tracked the entire railroad from Jacksonville to Miami. Perfectionists will want to note the "double track route" was not completely true, as the tracks split off south of the New Smyrna Beach Yard and the westerly one ran from Edgewater/Oak Hill to Maytown junction, hence back South to Titusville. Meanwhile the other track continued Southward on a more direct alignment from New Smyrna Beach to Titusville - close to US 1. Maytown was the junction point for the Kissimmee River Valley Line, The Benson Junction Line, Titusville/Mims and New Smyrna Beach. New Smyrna Beach also has a couple of signs of the old Satsuma, Lake Helen, Orange City, Orange City Junction line. Some good rail photo sites if you like old stuff.

For your next trip, the FEC starts in the many wyes just west of I-95. CSX, NS, as well as occasional western motive power is often seen in these areas. All three local roads send endless transfer jobs over the river. The Riverwalk on the Northbank of downtown Jacksonville is an excellent location to shoot these from an overhead walkway. Parking under I-95 (The Fuller Warren Bridge over the St. Johns River) by working ones way over to Riverside Avenue, under the bridge you'll see the parking (on weekends it's a huge art market so don't go for a train shoot on those days). It's just a short hike down river (North) to the FEC bridge. While your in the neighborhood, turn from Riverside Ave, turn West on Forest (just a couple of blocks north of the art market under bridge parking) Just before the freeway, you'll encounter MYRTLE AVE. This is an old and blighted neighborhood but mostly its all vacant as it's been bought out by developers. Go north on Myrtle to the "MYRTLE AVENUE SUBWAY", two narrow - LOW - tunnels pass under the old Terminal Throat, the center lane, which is taller and has a large concrete filler, was the JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANYS, Riverside, Murray Hill and Lackwanna Shops lines. There is a hobo jungle right above and East of the South portal, they are FRIENDLYS and are there under agreement with the Sheriff's office and the Railroad. They WILL challenge you if you get on the Right of Way. Be kind, explain yourself and keep your eyes open, lock up and don't invite trouble and you should have no problem. I usually bring them dog food (they have a very friendly pet), cigarettes or basic needs. They can turn out to be your very BEST guides.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2...e-avenue-subway

MORE? Oh yeah, just ask...

OCKLAWAHA

 

[VentureForth]

That's pretty much where I was. I took a bunch of photos from that walkway that crosses over the FEC in front of the CSX HQ. I also made it to the Myrtle Avenue Subway and was able to get a couple of shots of the two or three tracks that currently go by the convention center. There's actually a really good place to stop and park with no fences off of Dennis St on the SE quadrant of that location. Just no trains to take pictures of and a lot of trees obscuring the approach to the Jacksonville Terminal.

Rode the skyway and understand why it's claimed to go from nowhere to nowhere and carrys almost no one. Nice touristy ride, but didn't really want to get off anywhere. Wish there was a stop a bit closer to Jacksonville Landing. The turnstiles didn't work right and I was afraid of getting a ticket after paying my 50 cents, turnstile failing, and then proceeding through the disabled access.

I would love to see Amtrak one day ply the way along the old drawbridge.

I do want to go back - hopefully get some pictures of TRAINS on the bridge next time!

 

[VentureForth]

OCKLAWAHA,

Do you know Bruce Richardson?

 

[VentureForth]

A picture of the FEC bridge (without the drawbridge portion) here:

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29091

 

[Alex M.]

To update this thread to the present, in light of FEC's All Aboard Florida project, I wonder how likely it would be for them to build a northern terminus for their operations at the terminal vicinity? I'm sure that the city of Jacksonville may want to work with them on this, provided they are successful in the Miami to Orlando front.