Kind of glad Amtrak is slower than Europian Trains

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Both of the crashes this week have been at speeds that Amtrak regularly travels at.
 
Also.. be thankful that the FRA (Federal Railroad Authority) has extremely conservative safety policies. There is a reason that Amtrak trains have a low number of fatalities. Those cars are built to withstand alot. Sure you may get banged around a bit.. but the train cars aren't going to fall apart.

Another thing people don't think about.... all of the seats on Amtrak are bolted down with crazy requirements so that when a train has an accident people don't get crushed by chairs. That's why the dining cars all have booth seating, and why the lounge car chairs are bolted down the way they are.
 
The speeds could have been under that which Amtrak travels, but the trains are built lighter for speed and therefore in my opinion, which in America I am still able to express, they are less safe and therefore the europian high speed trains are still unsafe and I will take a slow Amtrak trip anyday to remain safe even if the accidents happened at low speed.
 
therefore in my opinion, which in America I am still able to express, they are less safe
That's the wonderful thing about America. You are allowed to express your opinion about facts, even if your version has nothing to do with actual facts. Those "Europians" can't do this, because they believe in sticking to the facts.
 
therefore in my opinion, which in America I am still able to express, they are less safe
That's the wonderful thing about America. You are allowed to express your opinion about facts, even if your version has nothing to do with actual facts. Those "Europians" can't do this, because they believe in sticking to the facts.
Unless you know "the facts" (which at this time I do not and if you do please inform me of them so I may verify them as actual facts), we Americans are entitled to express our opinions freely.
 
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It's pure coincidence that there have been these 3 crashes close together. It has nothing to do with the general safety of European railways, which remain one of the safest forms of transport. To put this into perspective, Amtrak runs 300 trains a day. In the UK alone there are over 20,000 a day. Imagine how many trains across Europe and you can see how many trains run trouble free every day.
 
therefore in my opinion, which in America I am still able to express, they are less safe
That's the wonderful thing about America. You are allowed to express your opinion about facts, even if your version has nothing to do with actual facts. Those "Europians" can't do this, because they believe in sticking to the facts.
So you know something better about this? Europeans whether spelled right or not are no diffrent from Americans as for stating facts. I go with what I know, if I am wrong, then fine, but attacking my opinion because you think you know better without stating why is just not right. Oh you are a guest, maybe that is why.
 
It's pure coincidence that there have been these 3 crashes close together. It has nothing to do with the general safety of European railways, which remain one of the safest forms of transport. To put this into perspective, Amtrak runs 300 trains a day. In the UK alone there are over 20,000 a day. Imagine how many trains across Europe and you can see how many trains run trouble free every day.
ok, I stand corrected. Sorry I don't have spell check and am not perfect as others seem to want us all to be. European or Europian, everyone knew what I meant. Members and guests alike need to look in the mirror when attacking others for spelling issues. No one is perfect on this site and should remember that.
 
When I go to Germany, I usually ride the original InterCity trains instead of the newer InterCity Express because I enjoy the old-fashoined 1st Class compartments and the locomotive-hauled trains.
 
People are allowed to have irrational fears all they want. It's a free country.

The person who is afraid to fly because of the recent crash in San Francisco, or afraid to take European trains because of a couple of recent derailments, or afraid to do x, y, or z because of some recent high-profile tragedy, probably has no qualms about driving down the interstate or walking across the street, both of which are far more likely to get you killed.

Too tired to do extremely detailed research, but back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate Amtrak carries somewhere around 6.5 billion passenger-miles annually (this link mention's Amtrak's FY10 LD ridership as being 2.8 billion passenger-miles, and 44% of Amtrak's total PMs, so that amounts to 6.36 billion for the whole system, then allow for a little bit of ridership growth, so 6.5 billion is close enough). In Europe, there were aproximately 223 billion passenger-miles in 2011 (359 billion passenger-kms). To be fair, I'm sure that includes more than just intercity trains, and I don't have total data on commuter trains in the US.

Still, in Europe in 2011, there were a total of 19 deaths caused by train collisions or derailments. There were also six passengers killed in grade-crossing incidents (as separate from collisions or derailments). That brings the total number of fatalities due to derailments/collisions to 0.112 per billion passenger-miles. I won't include the "other" fatailities in grade-crossing incidents (neither employees nor passengers, i.e. people who drove in front of a train) as that is not the fault of the train, and doesn't reflect the safety of the train itself (and it can be easily avoided by simply paying attention). And besides, we have plenty of those here, too. I also won't include what is categorized as "Accidents to persons caused by rolling stock in motion," which, as far as I can tell, means "people who got hit by a train." Again, avoided easily enough by simply paying attention, and not really a factor of equipment design.

The 79 deaths in Spain due to the derailment the other day really are a statistical anomaly. Granted, the equipment doesn't stand up as well in a derailment, but you also have to factor that in with the likelihood of a derailment happening in the first place. But, let's pretend this derailment occurred in 2011 and added to that year's death total (since, obviously, we don't have total figures for 2013 yet, so making any analysis for this year would be impossible). That would bring 2011's total to 104 passenger and crew fatalities due to derailments and collisions. Divide that by the 223 billion passenger-miles, and you get 0.466 fatalities per billion passenger-miles. For Amtrak to match that fatality rate, they'd need 3 passenger or crew fatalities per year (and yes, there are years where they do match or exceed that rate). For Amtrak to match the actual 2011 rate of 0.112, they couldn't have more than 1.5 fatalities every two years.

To compare that to automobile travel, in the US in 2011 there were 32,367 fatalities in car accidents, which amounts to 1.1 per 100 million vehicle-miles. I don't have total passenger-miles, but average car occupancy is around 1.5-ish, so let's just estimate it at 7 fatalities per billion passenger-miles.

And, now that I've gone and written all that, one last Google search turned up this page, which summed it all up with a bit more detail (including commuter rail in the US statistics). Those numbers indicate that European railroads, with those unsafe rolling death traps, are 3-4 times safer than US passenger railroads, with our slow, safe speeds and built-like-tanks equipment.
 
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Also.. be thankful that the FRA (Federal Railroad Authority) has extremely conservative safety policies.
No. In this case "conservative" means "unsafe". I will thank the *NTSB* for calling for "postive train control" and "automatic train stop" -- and calling for it since the 1940s.[qupte] There is a reason that Amtrak trains have a low number of fatalities.

Yes, because train travel is extremely safe, worldwide.

Those cars are built to withstand alot.
So are European trains.
Sure you may get banged around a bit.. but the train cars aren't going to fall apart.
I don't recall any European trains "falling apart".
Another thing people don't think about.... all of the seats on Amtrak are bolted down with crazy requirements so that when a train has an accident people don't get crushed by chairs. That's why the dining cars all have booth seating, and why the lounge car chairs are bolted down the way they are.
Most European countries require bolted-down seats too.
The facts, as Trogdor pointed out with citations, are that European train services are much safer than American ones. This is mostly because of the signalling systems. The US allows trains to be run with substandard signalling. The Spanish crash was due to... old, low-grade signalling.

But both European and American trains are much safer than drving a car.
 
Apart from some minor operations like the Orient Express, I can't think of many trains in Europe that don't have bolted down seating....
 
From Sourced Wikipedia: Over the Shinkansen's 49 year history, carrying nearly 7 billion passengers, there have been no passenger fatalities due to derailments or collisions, despite frequent earthquakes and typhoons. Injuries and a single fatality have been caused by doors closing on passengers or their belongings; attendants are employed at platforms to prevent such accidents. There have, however, been suicides by passengers jumping both from and in front of moving trains.
The only derailment of a Shinkansen train in passenger service occurred during the Chūetsu Earthquake on 23 October 2004. Eight of ten cars of the Toki No. 325 train on the Jōetsu Shinkansen derailed near Nagaoka Station in Nagaoka, Niigata. There were no casualties among the 154 passengers. In the event of an earthquake, an earthquake detection system can bring the train to a stop very quickly. A new anti-derailment device was installed after detailed analysis of the derailment.
This is for a system with speeds up to 187 MPH. It is not a matter of can't. It's a matter of making it a priority.
 
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I guess this shows one reason I read this forum. I have learned things and now know that my fears of European trains is unfounded. But I still prefer the Amtrak trains, if there are that many people traveling by train, I am assuming that they are completely packed during rush hour. Not what I call a nice train ride.
 
Also.. be thankful that the FRA (Federal Railroad Authority) has extremely conservative safety policies.
No. In this case "conservative" means "unsafe". I will thank the *NTSB* for calling for "postive train control" and "automatic train stop" -- and calling for it since the 1940s.[qupte] There is a reason that Amtrak trains have a low number of fatalities.

Yes, because train travel is extremely safe, worldwide.

Those cars are built to withstand alot.
So are European trains.
Sure you may get banged around a bit.. but the train cars aren't going to fall apart.
I don't recall any European trains "falling apart".
Another thing people don't think about.... all of the seats on Amtrak are bolted down with crazy requirements so that when a train has an accident people don't get crushed by chairs. That's why the dining cars all have booth seating, and why the lounge car chairs are bolted down the way they are.
Most European countries require bolted-down seats too.
The facts, as Trogdor pointed out with citations, are that European train services are much safer than American ones. This is mostly because of the signalling systems. The US allows trains to be run with substandard signalling. The Spanish crash was due to... old, low-grade signalling.

But both European and American trains are much safer than drving a car.
Ok.. clearly I didn't realize I was saying things so controversial. And let me first say that seats being bolted down was just an observation about something that the FRA does.. I never was intending to imply that European trains did not have this safety feature.

As for the others... we can agree to disagree on a few topics.. you mention the Automatic train stop in Europe and yet the FRA does not allow high speed trains like the one in Spain to operate without automatic train stop. Do the European countries require trains running only at speeds under 80 mph to operate without ATC? (I am asking that as a legitimate question, I do not know the answer).

I certainly feel that FRA standards are built to withstand impacts better, I thought that was fairly common thinking.

The goal of my post was simply to agree with what June was saying, Amtrak does provide a very safe railroad and they have many safety systems in place which is very comforting when riding the rails. I wasn't saying that European trains have bad safety records, but this is not the first time a high speed train accident has happened.. I am thinking of the ICE disaster that looked hauntingly simaliar to the latest in Spain, even though it was caused by a completely different issue. Statistically it would seem like Japan runs the safest rail system.
 
What about the Acela derailment? It begs a question: How good does the infrastructure have to be to get more speed? High speed isn't just a matter of a bigger engine.
 
The P42DC (Engine of choice for most non-NEC routes) is certified to a speed of 110 MPH. That's pretty impressive - and it's going to get to use it before too long in areas between St. Louis and Chicago.

I'm not real sure, but when there are heat restrictions or slow orders, I don't think all engines on all routes are protected. In fact, in Chicago on November 30, 2007 the Pere Marquette crashed into the rear of a freight train on approach to Chicago after blowing through a yellow over red signal and going 40 in an area restricted to 15 MPH.
 
In the US outside of NEC and a few freight trunk lines, nothing is protected with anything other than the engineer following the rules and signals. A crash at 80 mph is only marginally less messy than one at 100.
 
The P42DC (Engine of choice for most non-NEC routes) is certified to a speed of 110 MPH. That's pretty impressive - and it's going to get to use it before too long in areas between St. Louis and Chicago.
I'm not real sure, but when there are heat restrictions or slow orders, I don't think all engines on all routes are protected. In fact, in Chicago on November 30, 2007 the Pere Marquette crashed into the rear of a freight train on approach to Chicago after blowing through a yellow over red signal and going 40 in an area restricted to 15 MPH.
So there's no way to send a signal to automatically engage the brakes? I mean, it might be a tweak to the engines, but is it done anywhere else in the world?
 
The P42DC (Engine of choice for most non-NEC routes) is certified to a speed of 110 MPH. That's pretty impressive - and it's going to get to use it before too long in areas between St. Louis and Chicago.

I'm not real sure, but when there are heat restrictions or slow orders, I don't think all engines on all routes are protected. In fact, in Chicago on November 30, 2007 the Pere Marquette crashed into the rear of a freight train on approach to Chicago after blowing through a yellow over red signal and going 40 in an area restricted to 15 MPH.
So there's no way to send a signal to automatically engage the brakes? I mean, it might be a tweak to the engines, but is it done anywhere else in the world?
That's kinda what the whole "positive train control" thing is about. It's been discussed on here a time or two.
 
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