Large plane discussion

[jis]

Whatever happened to Boeing's 717?

There are still a few around. American had a large fleet which they rapidly decommissioned as they came up for some expensive upgrade requirements.

 

[jiml]

Whatever happened to Boeing's 717?

Delta and Hawaiian Airlines have a bunch. They're perfect for the latter's operation. Excellent airplane - think an MD-80 with significant upgrades.

 

[Trogdor]

There are still a few around. American had a large fleet which they rapidly decommissioned as they came up for some expensive upgrade requirements.

AA’s fleet wasn’t due for upgrades. They were removed from the fleet in 2002 after only a couple of years in service. They were acquired through AA’s acquisition of TWA back in 2000/01, but were incompatible with AA’s own fleet of similarly sized F100s. Apparently the lease rates were too high (having been signed by TWA when they were financially struggling), and AA was able to drop the leases in favor of retaining their own F100s which, at the time, were less expensive to operate. I don’t recall all of the details, but I think the owner (Boeing Capital, IIRC) didn’t want to negotiate a lower rate for AA, and perhaps the lease was still technically in the name of bankrupt TWA, and thus eligible for rejection.

Had Boeing decided to agree to better lease rates, it’s possible AA would have kept them and retired the F100 instead.

 

[jiml]

AA’s fleet wasn’t due for upgrades. They were removed from the fleet in 2002 after only a couple of years in service. They were acquired through AA’s acquisition of TWA back in 2000/01, but were incompatible with AA’s own fleet

That was my recollection as well, as both an AA FF and shareholder at the time. I think though that the incompatibility with the MD-80 fleet was more of an issue. A few of the 717's (aka the MD-95) survived as long as the F-100's - the last of which retired in 2003 IIRC. They were both great airplanes, based on my experience. The Fokker's had real galleys and were capable of generating a hot breakfast, unlike the regional jets that replaced them, and the 717's had amazing air quality. The DL 717's continue to serve Toronto and I choose them as often as I fly Delta.

 

[anumberone]

I agree. Most 757s will be gone from passenger service within the '20s decade. They will be replaced by more modern planes with scant attention to common type rating. For example, United is replacing them with a mix of 737-10s (for domestic missions) and A321XLR (for transoceanic internatinal missions).

Trump has a clapped out 757 parked somewhere. Hopefully he'll have to dust it off soon.

 

[Ryan]

Was in Tampa in January of 2019.

 

[railiner]

That was my recollection as well, as both an AA FF and shareholder at the time. I think though that the incompatibility with the MD-80 fleet was more of an issue. A few of the 717's (aka the MD-95) survived as long as the F-100's - the last of which retired in 2003 IIRC. They were both great airplanes, based on my experience. The Fokker's had real galleys and were capable of generating a hot breakfast, unlike the regional jets that replaced them, and the 717's had amazing air quality. The DL 717's continue to serve Toronto and I choose them as often as I fly Delta.

I loved those "Super 100's" that AA used when competing with Southwest out of Love Field...they were reconfigured as 56 seaters, with an all business class type service, at regular coach fares to satisfy the Wright Amendment requirements, until they were amended and rescinded...

 

[NS VIA Fan]

If I had only known then!....I think I'd have been on the Pan Am Shuttle instead!

 

[jis]

Another of the numerous Trump business misadventures.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Another of the numerous Trump business misadventures.

I was thinking the big hand is always on the 12 because they don’t know how to tell time.

 

[PVD]

Not an admirer of his business foibles, but in this case he have done some good by rescuing the staff of the shuttle from Frank Lorenzo and the destruction of Eastern. It didn't turn into a winner (shocker) but the default and lenders takeover led to the operation finding a home with USAir.

 

[Rover]

To separate the large from the small, I'll add my comments here. The issues of window shades (and the electronic ones on the 787) are an argument that will never fully satisfy everyone. They do save weight, which is important, but practically, they are a compromise between those that want to look out the window no matter what, and those that want the cabin as dark as possible so they can sleep/watch in-flight entertainment, etc. The dimming feature does not go completely opaque, yet they do very heavily limit the amount of light that can enter. You can still see out (albeit with a very heavy dark blue tint), but the cabin remains dark.

The other half of the controversy is that, because they are electronic, the crew can control them centrally. So if they want the cabin to be dark, they can lock it out (and likewise if they want the windows transparent, such as for takeoff and landing). That, of course, bugs the folks that want full control of the window shade to the exclusion of anyone else.

So many planes now have digital screens on the back of every seat, that they can show you views outside the plane there. I even read about a plane that had virtual windows for a center section enclosed area.

I was on the wrong side of the plane, and not at window seat, when we flew near the Grand Canyon. I think I'd be for no windows, but with option to look at various views from the digital screen at my seat. Some day, when the super-rich fly hypersonic, they won't have windows either.

 

[jis]

If the flying wing ever becomes reality then the only choice will be to provide video views of the outside to individual passengers possibly on their own device.

 

[anumberone]

Another of the numerous Trump business misadventures.

Total fiasco. He hired people that had no clue how to update the aircraft. He lost an unbelievable amount of money, plus what others got screwed out of.

 

[VentureForth]

New question on topic:

Who is buying Boeing anymore? I just read that with the 737-800 Max fiasco, even Southwest could break with 47 years of tradition and start buying A320 family jets.

My last several flights on AA have all been Airbus acquired from USAir. It seems hard-pressing to even call them "American" Airlines anymore.

 

[jiml]

New question on topic:

Who is buying Boeing anymore? I just read that with the 737-800 Max fiasco, even Southwest could break with 47 years of tradition and start buying A320 family jets.

My last several flights on AA have all been Airbus acquired from USAir. It seems hard-pressing to even call them "American" Airlines anymore.

Actually AA has been a substantial Airbus customer since the merger and already had some on-order before it. New acquisitions probably outnumber the inherited aircraft at this point. Their new A-321's are very nice airplanes, whereas the new 319's are horrible - even in the front cabin.

 

[railiner]

Recall that AA had a fleet of 35 A-300-600R’s, from 1988 until 2009.

 

[railiner]

They were ordered when AA and Boeing were disputing over the 767-300 order, and Airbus took advantage of that, and made AA a great offer, in an effort to get their foot in AA’s door.

Later, after the tragic crash of an A300 taking off from JFK, AA and Airbus pointed the finger at each other, and Boeing became the touted “exclusive provider” of AA aircraft, for a few years, anyway...

 

[jiml]

Recall that AA had a fleet of 35 A-300-600R’s, from 1988 until 2009.

Now that was an interesting airplane. Passengers and crew either loved them or hated them. You'd get great service from both sides in the "throne seat" in First Class. They were common Transatlantic for awhile, then South American and Caribbean routes because of their huge cargo capacity. They'd be gone by now anyway, but would have lasted longer if not for the incident you mentioned above.

 

[PVD]

Many of the Transatlantic flights were actually the little sister the A-310. But it came in 2 versions, and the shorter range version used to make unscheduled fuel stops quite often when headwinds were strong. Delta inherited a bunch from Pan Am.

 

[Trogdor]

They were ordered when AA and Boeing were disputing over the 767-300 order, and Airbus took advantage of that, and made AA a great offer, in an effort to get their foot in AA’s door.

Later, after the tragic crash of an A300 taking off from JFK, AA and Airbus pointed the finger at each other, and Boeing became the touted “exclusive provider” of AA aircraft, for a few years, anyway...

Boeing's "exclusive provider" status was established much earlier than the crash of AA587 in November 2001. The exclusivity agreement was signed in November 1996 (and similar agreements were also signed between Boeing and Delta and Continental Airlines around the same time).

However, these agreements were basically nullified as part of getting European approval for their McDonnell Douglas merger shortly afterwards.

For practical reasons, these airlines continued to buy only Boeing planes until a while later (for Delta and Continental, their mergers with Northwest and United introduced large numbers of Airbus planes in the fleet, and for American, they needed a large order of planes to replace the MD-80 fleet, and Airbus made the better offer for the bulk of that order). Incidentally, it was the AA Airbus order that forced Boeing's hand in offering the 737 MAX.

 

[jiml]

Many of the Transatlantic flights were actually the little sister the A-310. But it came in 2 versions, and the shorter range version used to make unscheduled fuel stops quite often when headwinds were strong. Delta inherited a bunch from Pan Am.

I don't recall AA ever having any A310's. I have definitely flown on an A310 with other airlines, but have also been to London on an American A300-600.

 

[railiner]

I don't recall AA ever having any A310's. I have definitely flown on an A310 with other airlines, but have also been to London on an American A300-600.

I also flew on one them, across the Atlantic. I liked the double armrest separating the two center coach seats...
They were much appreciated on long flights for the little bit of extra space they provided....

 

[PVD]

AA did not fly the 310. But they (the A-300) were not great on range, London would be about it. The AA A300 were a little more capable than the first gens (like the ones I used to get on Eastern) but still not great. The A-300 had a 90 minute rule, which made longer runs into Europe harder due to less optimal routing than the A310 and 767 which were the first ETOPS 120

 

[anumberone]

SpaceX launched their rocket powered
RESILIENCE this evening
The 4 seater will complete the flight in
271/2 hrs. Meals are included. Future plans are for booking trips for the public.