"Lock The Door When You Go Out!"

[frugalist]

What would Amtrak have to do to make all the sleeper doors lockable from the outside?

I know I've brought this up before, but the traveling solo thread has reignited my interest in this security issue. Yes, I was told not to worry, just keep my stuff out of sight and close the curtain when I leave. Yes, that's what I did on my trip last month, and I had no problems with anything missing. But, that doesn't mean this isn't a concern. And obviously, I'm not the only one who doesn't like the idea that you can't lock your door when you go to dinner.

I would imagine at the least Amtrak would have to replace the entire door and door frame to provide for a mechanism that can be locked by the passenger when he goes to the lounge or the diner. Are there any other, simpler modifications that can be done to achieve the same goal.

Other than not having the money to make such modifications to every sleeper in the fleet, are there any other reasons why it can't be done? Are they concerned people will walk off the train with the keys?

 

[haolerider]

What would Amtrak have to do to make all the sleeper doors lockable from the outside?

I know I've brought this up before, but the traveling solo thread has reignited my interest in this security issue. Yes, I was told not to worry, just keep my stuff out of sight and close the curtain when I leave. Yes, that's what I did on my trip last month, and I had no problems with anything missing. But, that doesn't mean this isn't a concern. And obviously, I'm not the only one who doesn't like the idea that you can't lock your door when you go to dinner.

I would imagine at the least Amtrak would have to replace the entire door and door frame to provide for a mechanism that can be locked by the passenger when he goes to the lounge or the diner. Are there any other, simpler modifications that can be done to achieve the same goal.

Other than not having the money to make such modifications to every sleeper in the fleet, are there any other reasons why it can't be done? Are they concerned people will walk off the train with the keys?

A satisfactory locking mechanism is one of the primary issues, as well as developing a program that would allow ticket agents to issue "keys" for the locks. Concerns are: what about stations that don't have agents - who will give a key to a sleeping car passenger? - who will re-key the locks when a new passengers boards down-line? What kind of equipment would have to be developed on-board to allow someone (who) to be the "keeper of the keys"? If someone knows of a product that would seem to work, let Amtrak know, but to date I am sure they are not considering exterior locks for the sleeping car rooms.

 

[Guest]

Just check the nightmare hotels have to go through, keeping and issuing room "keys", and I think you will find why Amtrak doesn't want to get involved.

Plus, exactly what problem are you trying to solve? Can you give hard facts to justify this is indeed a problem? In other words, just how much many should Amtrak spend to fix something that isn't really broken?

BTW, did you mom really teach you to lock the bathroom door behind you, when leaving? :giggle:

 

[caravanman]

Hi,

Originaly, the valuables passengers carried were a wallet, ladies a handbag, maybe just a camera too. Nowadays we all seem to need to carry masses of valuable electronic stuff just to get through the day...

I expect the main issue is that of safety, e.g. if smoke is coming from your compartment, the staff need to get it open.

While it only takes one bad apple to spoil things, I believe that 99.9% people are honest, and that our fears of crime are often based on sensational TV fictions, etc.

Just take sensible precautions, and life aboard train will be fine, even without locking your door when you go out.

After all, coach passengers seem to manage without locking their possesions to their ankles!

Ed

 

[frugalist]

Assuming that the door and the frame have to be replaced, why wouldn't a magnetic key card system work? Who would be the keeper of the keys? How about the SCA for those rooms he's responsible for + the Conductor as the guy in charge of the train? Why can't one of those be responsible for handing out keys to boarding passengers and changing key combinations.

I don't see the analogy between hotels and trains. I really feel sorry for hotels that they have to change their locks for each new guest. Hotels HAVE to have lockable doors. In most hotels just about anyone can walk up to a room door. Imagine if they couldn't be locked! Ransack the room and drive away! Tough to do on a train. As has been pointed out many times on this forum, how far can a thief go (at least until the next stop)? I don't buy the argument that the SCA is constantly on the lookout for his pax. In fact, it seems some SCAs think the job title is "Sleeping" Car Attendant (the adjective "sleeping" describing the car attendant).

A better analogy might be between a cruise ship and a train. Room stewards and heads of housekeeping can gain access to the room. Would you feel comfortable if your cabin couldn't be locked from the outside knowing that a thief couldn't get too far on a cruise ship! That's laughable.

Hard facts? Nope. Got none of those. Just the very fuzzy feeling of peace of mind and the expectation of the most basic security precautions onboard.

"BTW, did you mom really teach you to lock the bathroom door behind you, when leaving?" You gotta be kidding, right? You're not that stupid, are you?

 

[buck1108]

Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!

The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.

That might be the ticket!

But really...I can see how a well thought out key system could be workable. A micro circuit design that expired

after a certain time (perhaps once the train pulled into the station, an electrical signal could force unlock all

rooms to avoid lock-outs). Fingerprint technology would have to be improved - maybe voiceprint technology...

Physical tickets could contain a microdot which could be 'read' by a door scanner, etc. An 'Am-robot' could

control all doors (of course, when the robot had a mishap, the doors would be opening and closing repeatedly...)

Let's hope that wouldn't control all toilet lids/seats, as well...

Oh well. :blink:

 

[TVRM610]

Assuming that the door and the frame have to be replaced, why wouldn't a magnetic key card system work? Who would be the keeper of the keys? How about the SCA for those rooms he's responsible for + the Conductor as the guy in charge of the train? Why can't one of those be responsible for handing out keys to boarding passengers and changing key combinations.

Hard facts? Nope. Got none of those. Just the very fuzzy feeling of peace of mind and the expectation of the most basic security precautions onboard.

Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.

"Expectation of the most basic security precautions onboard" ???? What are you worried about getting stolen? You are expecting something that Amtrak does not provide. I also think you far underestimate the on-board crew. I've personally been reminded of my correct room or car # by many SCA's when I've gotten turned around on a train (yes it happens). ha. They know who people are, and where they belong.

I've said before I feel safer leaving valuables in a sleeper than a hotel room (and yes I stay in nice hotels). Many people don't realize that hotel maids can get into ALL the rooms and the hotel usually has a limited liability policy for guest valuables in the room (hence the safes available in the room or at the front desk). So think twice about the added protection of those magnetic keycards, your stuff can still get taken.

 

[MrFSS]

Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!

The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.

I always have wondered about that. What if someone is in the room with it locked properly and they have a medical emergency or die. Is a sledge hammer and crow bar the only way for the crew to get into the room?

 

[frugalist]

I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

A better analogy might be between a cruise ship and a train. Room stewards and heads of housekeeping can gain access to the room. Would you feel comfortable if your cabin couldn't be locked from the outside knowing that a thief couldn't get too far on a cruise ship! That's laughable.

I don't know of many cruise ships that have a "coach" section. Passengers that only get a deck chair, and no meals, for their cruise.

That is a lead-in to my viewpoint. The train precedent is that coach passengers have no place to lock up their luggage, or other valuables, when they leave their seat to go elsewhere (bathroom, dining car, lounge, etc). However, that situation is considered safe enough. Plus I think the facts back this up.

So, that also fits to sleeper passengers. The security of their luggage is no worse than in coach.

 

[buck1108]

Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!

The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.

I always have wondered about that. What if someone is in the room with it locked properly and they have a medical emergency or die. Is a sledge hammer and crow bar the only way for the crew to get into the room?

The personnel at that particular incident hadn't seen that happen before, and so after about an hour, they found a sledgehammer.

 

[buck1108]

I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.

I tend to take my valuables with me when I go to the diner or sightseeing car in a smaller bag, etc. Better to be safe than sorry, especially with the smaller things. The larger items might be ok (if I had a tuba, for example).

 

[Guest]

This should have been posted here

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/amtrak-guest-rewards/1115434-whats-stupidest-least-substantive-amtrak-related-thing-you-can-complain-about.html

 

[Guest]

You gotta be kidding, right? You're not that stupid, are you?

I guess my point was too subtle.

Your mom taught you to be overly paranoid. OK. We get that. Now, expecting others to pay millions of dollars simply because you are excessively paranoid is what's really stupid.

A little common sense is all that is really required here. Don't leave anything really valuable sitting out and overly visible. Put everything way before you leave your compartment. Don't create a crime of opportunity.

In all the times (decades now?) I have traveled Amtrak, I have never had such a problem, nor have I witnessed someone else having such a problem.

 

[AlanB]

I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect. I've said my peace on this issue, so let's just agree to disagree. When I take my laptop with me on my next LD trip, I will take it with me in my backpack when I go to the diner or the lounge. Am I paranoid? I'm not a psychologist, so I'll let you draw your own conclusion.

I haven't had occasion to stay in a hotel since I got my laptop, but I wouldn't leave my laptop in my hotel room either.

I brought a $35 laptop cable lock, which I use to secure my laptop to the release bar on the seat in the room. I also use it to secure my laptop to a large object when in a hotel room and I have no need to carry my laptop with me when I leave the room.

 

[AlanB]

Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!

The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.

I always have wondered about that. What if someone is in the room with it locked properly and they have a medical emergency or die. Is a sledge hammer and crow bar the only way for the crew to get into the room?

On the Viewliner's with the original locks, there was indeed an easy and mimimally disruptive way to open a locked door. A small screw driver was all that was needed, along with the knowledge of what you actually needed to do.

As they've been replacing the locks with the type used on the Superliners, unfortunately that ability has gone by the wayside. And the Superliner style locks are indeed near impossible to open from the outside. AFAIK you've pretty much got to take out the glass or knock down the door in an emergency.

 

[Ryan]

I know from reading this forum for the past 8 months that many members feel that Amtrak can do no wrong. That all they need is more equipment so they can have more frequent service on LD routes and everything will be perfect.

I'd like to meet some of these mythical members, because I haven't seen one in the 1827 months that I've been here.
I've never felt any discomfort in leaving valuables in my room when I leave (and I rarely travel light, so there's usually a pair of laptops, a GPS and a scanner there for the taking. Close the curtain and door when you leave and a passerby has no way of knowing if the room is occupied or not. even if someone were brazen enough to go down the line trying to open doors where the curtains are closed, that isn't going to last long when they happen onto rooms that are occupied!

Edit: Over 2 years? Where has all the time gone?

 

[GregL]

Actually, I had an Amtrak experience in which a refurbished car's roomette locked me out, quite unexpectedly!

The room attendant and conductor had to use a sledgehammer and crowbar to knock the door down.

I always have wondered about that. What if someone is in the room with it locked properly and they have a medical emergency or die. Is a sledge hammer and crow bar the only way for the crew to get into the room?

On the Viewliner's with the original locks, there was indeed an easy and mimimally disruptive way to open a locked door. A small screw driver was all that was needed, along with the knowledge of what you actually needed to do.

As they've been replacing the locks with the type used on the Superliners, unfortunately that ability has gone by the wayside. And the Superliner style locks are indeed near impossible to open from the outside. AFAIK you've pretty much got to take out the glass or knock down the door in an emergency.

We had a room on one trip where the door wouldn't stay shut,let alone locked all night!!

GregL

 

[spacecadet]

Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.

It would cost some money, but I don't see why it would be particularly expensive (relatively speaking) or a "large hassle". You can get a magnetic lock put on your home's front door for a few hundred dollars. Amtrak would no doubt get a large discount off that price per lock. So let's say $100 per lock, installed. How many rooms would they have to install these on? I'm just estimating about 4,500. That's $450,000.

There'd be some other parts of the system they'd need - the key programmer, a bunch of keys, a place to store them, but that wouldn't be more than a few thousand more per car.

It being a government program, let's allow for the customary 100% cost overrun and say $1 million for the entire system fleet-wide. That's really not that much.

As for it being a large hassle, in what way? You have a box with a set of pre-programmed keys for each room. As each passenger boards, the SCA hands them the key to their room. When the passenger de-boards, they give the key back. If they forget, no big deal, there's a bunch of spare cards that can either be pre-programmed (as spares for each room) or programmed on the fly. But it would just be the SCA's duty to collect the key as the passenger de-boards, so this shouldn't happen all that often.

The nice thing about magnetic card systems too is that if someone locks themselves out of (or in) their room or loses their key, the SCA either just makes another one or uses the master key card he/she'd be carrying all the time to get into the room. That's actually a big improvement over the system now.

There's often a mentality among some, not just here but everywhere and about everything, that "it's not done now, therefore it's not worth doing because it would be too hard". Nothing would *ever* get done if the majority of people felt that way. (Indeed, it is a big reason why other countries have passed us by when it comes to rail travel. It's just too hard to implement a modern rail system here! Well yeah, if you think it is. It becomes self-fulfilling.)

I just don't see how this would be so expensive or such a hassle that the obvious benefits would be outweighed by the pain of getting it done.

 

[the_traveler]

coach passengers have no place to lock up their luggage, or other valuables, when they leave their seat to go elsewhere (bathroom, dining car, lounge, etc). However, that situation is considered safe enough. Plus I think the facts back this up.

So, that also fits to sleeper passengers. The security of their luggage is no worse than in coach.

That is a very good point!

So why doesn't Amtrak spend $xxx,xxx,xxx so coach passengers can secure their seats too, while they spend $xxx,xxx,xxx to provide locks for the sleeping car passengers?

I for one would rather them spend the same $xxx,xxx,xxx for more cars, to expand the service!

Except for #27/28 when the #807/808 coach is carried between CHI and MSP, coach passengers are not allowed in sleeping cars. Most trains have the Dining Car placed between the sleepers and coach. And I HAVE been questioned by the Dining Car staff AND the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!

 

[MrFSS]

I HAVE been questioned by the Dining Car staff AND the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!

I thought everyone always recognized THE TRAVELER.

 

[Guest]

Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.

It would cost some money, but I don't see why it would be particularly expensive (relatively speaking) or a "large hassle". You can get a magnetic lock put on your home's front door for a few hundred dollars. Amtrak would no doubt get a large discount off that price per lock. So let's say $100 per lock, installed. How many rooms would they have to install these on? I'm just estimating about 4,500. That's $450,000.

There'd be some other parts of the system they'd need - the key programmer, a bunch of keys, a place to store them, but that wouldn't be more than a few thousand more per car.

It being a government program, let's allow for the customary 100% cost overrun and say $1 million for the entire system fleet-wide. That's really not that much.

As for it being a large hassle, in what way? You have a box with a set of pre-programmed keys for each room. As each passenger boards, the SCA hands them the key to their room. When the passenger de-boards, they give the key back. If they forget, no big deal, there's a bunch of spare cards that can either be pre-programmed (as spares for each room) or programmed on the fly. But it would just be the SCA's duty to collect the key as the passenger de-boards, so this shouldn't happen all that often.

The nice thing about magnetic card systems too is that if someone locks themselves out of (or in) their room or loses their key, the SCA either just makes another one or uses the master key card he/she'd be carrying all the time to get into the room. That's actually a big improvement over the system now.

There's often a mentality among some, not just here but everywhere and about everything, that "it's not done now, therefore it's not worth doing because it would be too hard". Nothing would *ever* get done if the majority of people felt that way. (Indeed, it is a big reason why other countries have passed us by when it comes to rail travel. It's just too hard to implement a modern rail system here! Well yeah, if you think it is. It becomes self-fulfilling.)

I just don't see how this would be so expensive or such a hassle that the obvious benefits would be outweighed by the pain of getting it done.

Yeah, locks would be nice, but there are better things to spend a million bucks on. Amtrak is so behind that improvements are a matter of triage.

 

[TVRM610]

Could a magnetic key card system work? Sure, the trains in Europe do this. The problem is that Amtrak has no reason to do this. It would be expensive and a large hassle.

It would cost some money, but I don't see why it would be particularly expensive (relatively speaking) or a "large hassle". You can get a magnetic lock put on your home's front door for a few hundred dollars. Amtrak would no doubt get a large discount off that price per lock. So let's say $100 per lock, installed. How many rooms would they have to install these on? I'm just estimating about 4,500. That's $450,000.

There'd be some other parts of the system they'd need - the key programmer, a bunch of keys, a place to store them, but that wouldn't be more than a few thousand more per car.

It being a government program, let's allow for the customary 100% cost overrun and say $1 million for the entire system fleet-wide. That's really not that much.

As for it being a large hassle, in what way? You have a box with a set of pre-programmed keys for each room. As each passenger boards, the SCA hands them the key to their room. When the passenger de-boards, they give the key back. If they forget, no big deal, there's a bunch of spare cards that can either be pre-programmed (as spares for each room) or programmed on the fly. But it would just be the SCA's duty to collect the key as the passenger de-boards, so this shouldn't happen all that often.

The nice thing about magnetic card systems too is that if someone locks themselves out of (or in) their room or loses their key, the SCA either just makes another one or uses the master key card he/she'd be carrying all the time to get into the room. That's actually a big improvement over the system now.

There's often a mentality among some, not just here but everywhere and about everything, that "it's not done now, therefore it's not worth doing because it would be too hard". Nothing would *ever* get done if the majority of people felt that way. (Indeed, it is a big reason why other countries have passed us by when it comes to rail travel. It's just too hard to implement a modern rail system here! Well yeah, if you think it is. It becomes self-fulfilling.)

I just don't see how this would be so expensive or such a hassle that the obvious benefits would be outweighed by the pain of getting it done.

The hassle is not when everything works like it should. Yes.. the way you described it sounds like a wonderful plan.

Only what happens when the lock stops working? Do you have a new staff member at each terminal who knows how to fix the locks? Or does the car go without them until it can go to beachgrove? When the power goes out how do they work? Is the $100 base system that you say is so cheap set up to work in an environment that constantly looses and regains power? (by constantly I mean several times a day, every day its being used), does this $100 per door system strong enough to last even a week being constantly shaken by the movement of the trains?

Oh I know, I'm suddenly an "Apologetist" for suggesting the idea is difficult.

Do I think there is room for improvement at Amtrak? yes.

 

[the_traveler]

I HAVE been questioned by the Dining Car staff AND the SCA when I've entered the sleepers and they did not recognize me!

I thought everyone always recognized THE TRAVELER.

No, not everyone RECOGNIZES the_traveler - but everyone KNOWS the_traveler!

 

[Ryan]

He could be sitting next to you right now!!!

(if you were on a train, of course)