"Population Density"

[George Harris]

If you look at the satellite "light maps" of the United States, you'll notice that there's a cutoff point several miles west of I-35 where the population density goes way down until you reach the West Coast. Other than several large and growing cities in the West like Denver, Albuquerque, Las Vegas, Phoenix or Salt Lake City, the west is pretty much desolate.

A lot of hot air an statistic massaging and manipulation is completely unnecessary if you just look at these light maps. They tell us much of what we need to know. Also, recognize that using the population of entire states such as Texas is also misleading. The "Texas Triangle" Dallas-San Antonio-Houston definitely has a series of high density population areas that should easily support rail service, but once west of the Ft. Worth - San Antonio line, the population density drops dratically.

As an aside, looking at the "world at Night" map published a few years back, there were obvious differences based on economics as well. Africa is still, if not the Dark Continent, at least a darker continent when comparing light levels with population. But, there were two truly "slap you in teh face" political boundaries that truly are visible from space. Egypt and Sudan. The Nile Valley was defined by a distinct band of lights from the Mediterranean all the way to the Sudan boundry. At that point is cut off abruptly in a precise east-west line. The othere: North and South Korea. South Korea was well lighted to the level of Japan and Western Europe. North of the border, there were a few dim light spots. Even Pongyang was not very bright.

 

[GlobalistPotato]

So why does the Lynchburger work in that case?

Well, not because Samuel L Jackson is going to shoot you. :lol:

The "Lynchburger" works for several reasons I think. One is proximity to the NEC. You can take the train to Philly, NYP. The trip times are reasonably competitive to driving times, because much of the route to DC is a well maintained NS line. Fix the bottleneck in northern VA in the south of Alexandria to WAS section as part of a SE HSR and VRE improvement project, it might even match driving times. A second reason is that the "Lynchburger" runs to several college towns which don't sit on an interstate leading to DC. College towns which are within 2-4 hour train ride from major cities are a major market for Amtrak.

They really should speed up the process of extending the service to Roanoke and if they can work it, close to Blacksburg (VA Tech), not spend 5 years planning it. If NS is willing, add a second daily frequency, so people can make day trips in both directions.

Oh yes. College markets.

College students probably make up a majority of the Illini's and Saluki's ridership. Carbondale and the other cities along the route are relatively small, and if it wasn't for those colleges, then there wouldn't be as much ridership as there is.

Most of those students at those colleges are from the Chicagoland area... and they have a direct ride... so it works...

 

[BobWeaver]

The "Lynchburger" works for several reasons I think. One is proximity to the NEC. You can take the train to Philly, NYP. The trip times are reasonably competitive to driving times, because much of the route to DC is a well maintained NS line. Fix the bottleneck in northern VA in the south of Alexandria to WAS section as part of a SE HSR and VRE improvement project, it might even match driving times.

Don't forget that this train goes all the way to Boston on weekdays! The Lynchburg Regional is already very competitive with driving times, especially between LYH and WAS. In fact, driving an approximately parallel route to WAS that the Regional follows takes 8 minutes longer by car than the posted time for the train. While there is no doubt in my mind that the line is well maintained, the portion of track between LYH and CVS seems like it could be upgraded by adding some additional superelevation on curves, similar to what NCDOT is doing. Not sure how this would affect freight train handling on the line, though, since their speeds are lower.

They really should speed up the process of extending the service to Roanoke and if they can work it, close to Blacksburg (VA Tech), not spend 5 years planning it. If NS is willing, add a second daily frequency, so people can make day trips in both directions.

A bus connection from Roanoke to Lynchburg is scheduled to begin in July at the nice price of $4 one way. Extending passenger service through to Roanoke and then southwest through Southwest Virginia would become more likely if Tennessee were to agree to keep the service running past Bristol. The attitudes of TN government officials seem to be promising, though. Much of VDRPT's present focus seems to be on the new line to Norfolk south from Richmond.

I agree with the idea about a second daily departure, although it probably wouldn't be able to depart LYH any later than about 2-3PM so as to arrive NYP by midnight or before.

 

[TVRM610]

A bus connection from Roanoke to Lynchburg is scheduled to begin in July at the nice price of $4 one way. Extending passenger service through to Roanoke and then southwest through Southwest Virginia would become more likely if Tennessee were to agree to keep the service running past Bristol. The attitudes of TN government officials seem to be promising, though. Much of VDRPT's present focus seems to be on the new line to Norfolk south from Richmond.

How far along are these talks? I'm assuming past Bristol means Knoxville and then south to Chattanooga? Do you know anything more ? This has obviously got my interest! ha.

 

[BobWeaver]

A bus connection from Roanoke to Lynchburg is scheduled to begin in July at the nice price of $4 one way. Extending passenger service through to Roanoke and then southwest through Southwest Virginia would become more likely if Tennessee were to agree to keep the service running past Bristol. The attitudes of TN government officials seem to be promising, though. Much of VDRPT's present focus seems to be on the new line to Norfolk south from Richmond.

How far along are these talks? I'm assuming past Bristol means Knoxville and then south to Chattanooga? Do you know anything more ? This has obviously got my interest! ha.

I don't know how far along the talks are, but I would say venture to say that they're fairly basic. The TN Lieutenant Governor invited a VDRPT team to speak to him on the idea, though, which in the very least shows some openness to the idea. The line could extend as far south as Atlanta in theory, but I don't know how GDOT feels about state-supported rail service. It would likely mean Knoxville, but I don't believe the line runs through Chattanooga on its way to Atlanta.

 

[TVRM610]

I don't know how far along the talks are, but I would say venture to say that they're fairly basic. The TN Lieutenant Governor invited a VDRPT team to speak to him on the idea, though, which in the very least shows some openness to the idea. The line could extend as far south as Atlanta in theory, but I don't know how GDOT feels about state-supported rail service. It would likely mean Knoxville, but I don't believe the line runs through Chattanooga on its way to Atlanta.

Atlanta would make the most sense I think, seeing as how a crew base and train "turning" capabilities are already established there.

As someone who lives in Chattanooga, I can assure you that Amtrak would not bypass Chattanooga from Knoxville to Atlanta. The NS has two mains from Knoxville South, and indeed the most direct main from Knoxville to Atlanta bypasses Chattanooga, but just barely. A passenger train would most certainly go into Chattanooga, then back out to the ATL main.

 

[BobWeaver]

I don't know how far along the talks are, but I would say venture to say that they're fairly basic. The TN Lieutenant Governor invited a VDRPT team to speak to him on the idea, though, which in the very least shows some openness to the idea. The line could extend as far south as Atlanta in theory, but I don't know how GDOT feels about state-supported rail service. It would likely mean Knoxville, but I don't believe the line runs through Chattanooga on its way to Atlanta.

Atlanta would make the most sense I think, seeing as how a crew base and train "turning" capabilities are already established there.

As someone who lives in Chattanooga, I can assure you that Amtrak would not bypass Chattanooga from Knoxville to Atlanta. The NS has two mains from Knoxville South, and indeed the most direct main from Knoxville to Atlanta bypasses Chattanooga, but just barely. A passenger train would most certainly go into Chattanooga, then back out to the ATL main.

Well, you hope it would. It'd be interesting to see how it would work, because unless the train heads north out of Knoxville through Clinton, it seems that a stop in Chattanooga would have to involve some kind of reverse move since there looks to be only one track from the main into Chattanooga itself.

 

[TVRM610]

Hope has nothing to do with it. Chattanooga is the 4th largest city in the state, if the state is funding this it will surely stop in Chattanooga. Even if the state wasn't funding it, there would be absolutely no reason to bypass Chattanooga.

Depending on where Amtrak would set up as a station, plenty of possibilities exist.

Even if the train just gets extended to Bristol I would be extremely happy.

 

[PaulM]

IMHO it's not population but traffic density. Using that criterion, there are a lot of places in the US that could use trains service.

 

[PaulM]

College students probably make up a majority of the Illini's and Saluki's ridership. Carbondale and the other cities along the route are relatively small, and if it wasn't for those colleges, then there wouldn't be as much ridership as there is.

I don't know much about the Carbondale line; but I suspect that over the course of a year, Cub fans out number college students on the IZ to Quincy, at least if the Cubs have a decent season.

 

[BobWeaver]

Hope has nothing to do with it. Chattanooga is the 4th largest city in the state, if the state is funding this it will surely stop in Chattanooga. Even if the state wasn't funding it, there would be absolutely no reason to bypass Chattanooga.

Well somebody sure is (over)confident. Hope might have nothing to do with it, but funding absolutely does. Not to say that Chattanooga would be overlooked, but a new station, additional staff, any infrastructure needs/improvements, and all that jazz carries no small cost, especially if there is no state funding. I do hope that Knoxville, Chattanooga, and Atlanta can be added (not sure how timing would work out, since the drive from Atlanta to Lynchburg through TN is 9 hours), but until we know something for sure regarding any expansion within TN, it's just pure speculation.

 

[Bob Dylan]

College students probably make up a majority of the Illini's and Saluki's ridership. Carbondale and the other cities along the route are relatively small, and if it wasn't for those colleges, then there wouldn't be as much ridership as there is.

I don't know much about the Carbondale line; but I suspect that over the course of a year, Cub fans out number college students on the IZ to Quincy, at least if the Cubs have a decent season.

Wasnt that in 1906 Paul?? :help: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TVRM610]

Hope has nothing to do with it. Chattanooga is the 4th largest city in the state, if the state is funding this it will surely stop in Chattanooga. Even if the state wasn't funding it, there would be absolutely no reason to bypass Chattanooga.

Well somebody sure is (over)confident.

It's over confident to think that an Amtrak passenger train running through Chattanooga would serve Chattanooga? The "backtracking" could be as little as 5-8 miles if the station were to be close to the airport. If the old Terminal Station were used (which strangely enough is entirely possible) or anywhere else in downtown Chattanooga, it would require about 15 or so miles of backtracking. I realize this is speculation but I would be extremely surprised to see Chattanooga skipped on a Knoxville-Atlanta route.

Even if it was, there would surely be a stop in Cleveland then, which is just as close for me as downtown Chattanooga anyways, so I will still get close access to the train.

 

[MattW]

I don't know how far along the talks are, but I would say venture to say that they're fairly basic. The TN Lieutenant Governor invited a VDRPT team to speak to him on the idea, though, which in the very least shows some openness to the idea. The line could extend as far south as Atlanta in theory, but I don't know how GDOT feels about state-supported rail service. It would likely mean Knoxville, but I don't believe the line runs through Chattanooga on its way to Atlanta.

Atlanta would make the most sense I think, seeing as how a crew base and train "turning" capabilities are already established there.

As someone who lives in Chattanooga, I can assure you that Amtrak would not bypass Chattanooga from Knoxville to Atlanta. The NS has two mains from Knoxville South, and indeed the most direct main from Knoxville to Atlanta bypasses Chattanooga, but just barely. A passenger train would most certainly go into Chattanooga, then back out to the ATL main.

Actually, the best route for a passenger train to take ATL-Chattanooga would be CSX. The NS route swings way east while it's northeast of Dalton, then way west toward Rome, and while serving Rome certainly isn't a bad idea, I think serving the cities on the I-75 corridor (CSX) would be better.

Also, if you use NS in and out of Chattanooga southbound, you miss the Chattanooga airport.

I don't know how far along the talks are, but I would say venture to say that they're fairly basic. The TN Lieutenant Governor invited a VDRPT team to speak to him on the idea, though, which in the very least shows some openness to the idea. The line could extend as far south as Atlanta in theory, but I don't know how GDOT feels about state-supported rail service. It would likely mean Knoxville, but I don't believe the line runs through Chattanooga on its way to Atlanta.

Atlanta would make the most sense I think, seeing as how a crew base and train "turning" capabilities are already established there.

As someone who lives in Chattanooga, I can assure you that Amtrak would not bypass Chattanooga from Knoxville to Atlanta. The NS has two mains from Knoxville South, and indeed the most direct main from Knoxville to Atlanta bypasses Chattanooga, but just barely. A passenger train would most certainly go into Chattanooga, then back out to the ATL main.

Well, you hope it would. It'd be interesting to see how it would work, because unless the train heads north out of Knoxville through Clinton, it seems that a stop in Chattanooga would have to involve some kind of reverse move since there looks to be only one track from the main into Chattanooga itself.

Could you please post a link to a map that shows this? Based on my tracing of the tracks around Knoxville, no backup move would be required unless you put the station off on one of the "spur" lines through Knoxville.

 

[TVRM610]

Now that I think about the scheduling... it seems like Bristol-Atlanta would be overnight, if the existing schedule was simply extended... hmm... anyways. Exciting to know it's even remotely possible.

 

[TVRM610]

Actually, the best route for a passenger train to take ATL-Chattanooga would be CSX. The NS route swings way east while it's northeast of Dalton, then way west toward Rome, and while serving Rome certainly isn't a bad idea, I think serving the cities on the I-75 corridor (CSX) would be better.

MattW, I completely agree with you, the most logical route would be NS to Chattanooga (obviously ha) and then CSX Chattanooga to ATL. Seeing as how NS is much more likely to work nicely with Amtrak on a new service, I tend to think the NS route would be the most likely candidate.

 

[BobWeaver]

Could you please post a link to a map that shows this? Based on my tracing of the tracks around Knoxville, no backup move would be required unless you put the station off on one of the "spur" lines through Knoxville.

I was referring to a backup move into Chattanooga, since these seems to only be one way in from the main at Cleveland TN.

 

[TVRM610]

Could you please post a link to a map that shows this? Based on my tracing of the tracks around Knoxville, no backup move would be required unless you put the station off on one of the "spur" lines through Knoxville.

I was referring to a backup move into Chattanooga, since these seems to only be one way in from the main at Cleveland TN.

Yes Cleveland through Ooltewah to Chattanooga. Then Chattanooga to Ooltewah where the train could head south through Colledgedale to meet back up with the Atlanta main. If the train were to serve the old Terminal Station, the complex still sits next to a wye.

Of course, if they took the CSX line to ATL like MattW mentioned, the train would have to go through Chattanooga anyways.

And while this is speculation, it sure is fun to hope!

 

[Dan O]

College students probably make up a majority of the Illini's and Saluki's ridership. Carbondale and the other cities along the route are relatively small, and if it wasn't for those colleges, then there wouldn't be as much ridership as there is.

I don't know much about the Carbondale line; but I suspect that over the course of a year, Cub fans out number college students on the IZ to Quincy, at least if the Cubs have a decent season.

Wasnt that in 1906 Paul?? :help: :lol: :lol: :lol:

1908 was their last World Series title. 1906 they had a great regular season but lost the Series. They also won it in 1907.

Dan

 

[MattW]

Could you please post a link to a map that shows this? Based on my tracing of the tracks around Knoxville, no backup move would be required unless you put the station off on one of the "spur" lines through Knoxville.

I was referring to a backup move into Chattanooga, since these seems to only be one way in from the main at Cleveland TN.

Actually, unless NS has removed the southish westish WYE track in Cleveland, there is a line both directions, but like TVRM610 said, the simpler solution to stay on NS tracks would be to head south at Ooltewah, but if the CSX route were chose, the only backing moves should be in and out of the Chattanooga station wherever they might decide to put it.

 

[PaulM]

I don't know much about the Carbondale line; but I suspect that over the course of a year, Cub fans out number college students on the IZ to Quincy, at least if the Cubs have a decent season.

Wasnt that in 1906 Paul?? :help: :lol: :lol: :lol:

1908 was their last World Series title. 1906 they had a great regular season but lost the Series. They also won it in 1907.

Phew. It's good to know it wasn't way back in 1906.

Seriously, I shudder to think what would happen to the IZ buckets if there were even the slightest chance that dubious record would be broken. A couple of years ago in the middle of the week in April, I was on a sold out train full of silly Cubs' hats.

 

[BobWeaver]

Could you please post a link to a map that shows this? Based on my tracing of the tracks around Knoxville, no backup move would be required unless you put the station off on one of the "spur" lines through Knoxville.

I was referring to a backup move into Chattanooga, since these seems to only be one way in from the main at Cleveland TN.

Actually, unless NS has removed the southish westish WYE track in Cleveland, there is a line both directions, but like TVRM610 said, the simpler solution to stay on NS tracks would be to head south at Ooltewah, but if the CSX route were chose, the only backing moves should be in and out of the Chattanooga station wherever they might decide to put it.

The switch is still there, albeit a hand-operated one. The fact remains that any Amtrak train that enters downtown Chattanooga will be facing south, and with no tracks leading directly from downtown Chattanooga to a main line to Atlanta that I can see, either some kind of reverse move or the use of the wye adjacent to Terminal Station would be necessary to orient the trains correctly for their ride back to the main.

I'd venture to say that the chances of using the old Terminal Station as a station are zero. That place is a working hotel, restaurant, and semi-museum, and its tracks and platforms out back are now parking lots and railcar exhibits.

 

[oldtimer]

I don't know much about the Carbondale line; but I suspect that over the course of a year, Cub fans out number college students on the IZ to Quincy, at least if the Cubs have a decent season.

Wasnt that in 1906 Paul?? :help: :lol: :lol: :lol:

1908 was their last World Series title. 1906 they had a great regular season but lost the Series. They also won it in 1907.

Phew. It's good to know it wasn't way back in 1906.

Seriously, I shudder to think what would happen to the IZ buckets if there were even the slightest chance that dubious record would be broken. A couple of years ago in the middle of the week in April, I was on a sold out train full of silly Cubs' hats.

The Yuppie Cub fans have given up on them as the last home stand they had more empty seats than full ones. They announced the paid attendance (lots of no show season ticket holders) as 20,000 less than capacity. The White Sox are the working man's team and this year they opened a new Metra stop at 35th ST for the Sox.

Don't feel bad about the Cubs as any team can have a bad century or two!

:help: :blush: :help:

 

[AlanB]

I'd venture to say that the chances of using the old Terminal Station as a station are zero. That place is a working hotel, restaurant, and semi-museum, and its tracks and platforms out back are now parking lots and railcar exhibits.

Perhaps things have changed since my visit, and Bill Haithcoat may know if they have, but as of a few years ago there was still one track at the station that could be accessed by trains. Bill & I, along with another friend, boarded the TVRM's Downtown Arrow at the station for a ride out to their musuem. That train has since been discontinued, but that had more to do with the fact that the train essentially shut down the mainline as it crossed from the station side over to the track leading to the musuem.

 

[Anderson]

Hope has nothing to do with it. Chattanooga is the 4th largest city in the state, if the state is funding this it will surely stop in Chattanooga. Even if the state wasn't funding it, there would be absolutely no reason to bypass Chattanooga.

Depending on where Amtrak would set up as a station, plenty of possibilities exist.

Even if the train just gets extended to Bristol I would be extremely happy.

I read the numbers on the Trans-Dominion Express (TDX), which in addition to sounding like it belongs in 19th Century Canada (really, it does), had awful CR estimates while the travel times were ugly. A fair part of the problem with the Bristol route (and moreover, extending it to Chattanooga) harks back to an old conversation I had with Bill Haithcoat: The tracks out there are lousy for even "normal" operations...you're looking at swaths where you'll be going 40 MPH because of both track conditions and mountain curves. I pulled up an old schedule for the Birmingham Special, which ran WAS-Chattanooga via Lynchburg, Roanoke, and Bristol (or, about the route that a TDX line running into TN would use), and the travel times run about 15.5-16 hours each way. The Pelican and Tennesseean ran similar times (I think the Pelican took a little longer because of a hold somewhere). Add 2-3 hours to get to Atlanta and you have a non-starter of a route on its own merits, though as a series of short hauls that run over the length of the line and manages to get traffic on those shorter hauls (Atlanta-Chattanooga, Chattanooga-Bristol, etc.) rather than longer-distance traffic, this might work.