Semi-Inverted Second Crescent?

[Just-Thinking-51]

I agree with "The Crescent Star".

Now can we get the "Cajun King" too.

FYI "Cajun King" is from Passenger Train Journal 2009-2.

1745 Dallas, TX. 1145

2345 Shreveport, LA. 0615

0830 Baton Rouge, LA. 2145

1030 New Orleans, LA. 0745

1410 Moblie, AL. 1350

1630 Pensacola, FL. 1045

2230 Tallahassee, FL. 0730

0230 Jacksonville, FL. 0330

0630 Orlando, FL. 2230

Yes there is more stops, and the PTJ also has the Sunset Limited getting reroute thur Sweetwater, Abilene, and into Dallas, Tx. Where it turn around to go back to Los Angeles, CA.

Oh dang there goes my alarm clock, time to wake up.....

 

[Notelvis]

Bringing Birmingham back in the mix -

There is still a house track in place there where a sleeper and couple of coaches on the Crescent could do a same day turn...... not possible in Atlanta as the two tracks through Peachtree Station are both used by mainline freight trains.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

@ Bill: Praven. *jk*OK, Newnan.

The shopping trips would have probably been between the mid 30's and the late 40's, but I'm not sure. I'm fairly certain it was before the late 50's, though.

One route was the Central of Georgia from Columbus. At times the schedule on that route could have been done with a few hours in Atlanta, sometimes not.

The other route was part of a longer route It was New Orleans to Montgomery on the Louisville and Nashville. Then Montgomery stopping at Newman to Atlanta on the Atlanta and West Point .. Then the Southern RR to Washington and the Pennsylvania to New York.

One of those trains was then called the Piedmont Limited and the other was then called the Crescent, or, if before 1949, the Crescent Limited.

The story of the routes, train names and schedules for what has today evolved into the Crescent.is long and kind of involved.

There is much irony here since you have chosen the name Crescent2 for your self..

Fact is, your mother probably rode north on what was then called the Crescent, on a different route than that today. And she probably came south on the Piedmont Limited.

Rich's and Davisons drew a lot of southeast traffic, most notably the Nancy Hanks from Savannah. And, not too be outdone, mother and me on the Georgian from Chattanooga...

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bringing Birmingham back in the mix -
There is still a house track in place there where a sleeper and couple of coaches on the Crescent could do a same day turn...... not possible in Atlanta as the two tracks through Peachtree Station are both used by mainline freight trains.

Well, no, the Crescent had cars from New York removed in Atlanta for several years after the downtown stations were closed

There is a track branching off to the left of the station More importantly there is a yard north of the statioon where the cars were parked during the day, and easily seen from MARTA

 

[Bob Dylan]

Bringing Birmingham back in the mix -
There is still a house track in place there where a sleeper and couple of coaches on the Crescent could do a same day turn...... not possible in Atlanta as the two tracks through Peachtree Station are both used by mainline freight trains.

Well, no, the Crescent had cars from New York removed in Atlanta for several years after the downtown stations were closed

There is a track branching off to the left of the station More importantly there is a yard north of the statioon where the cars were parked during the day, and easily seen from MARTA

The Master of Old Time Southern RRs has Spoken! Book it Danno!

 

[afigg]

Bringing Birmingham back in the mix -
There is still a house track in place there where a sleeper and couple of coaches on the Crescent could do a same day turn...... not possible in Atlanta as the two tracks through Peachtree Station are both used by mainline freight trains.

Fixing that is the main driving force for building a new station in Atlanta if all the interests involved can pull it off.

Some of the ideas floated here for this or that overnight train with sleepers are impractical and are not going to happen without a major restoration of daytime corridor services first. Rather than another train running to NYP or an overnight train to Dallas, how about a daytime Birmingham to Atlanta to Charlotte to Raleigh train? Schedule it to allow connections to the Silver Star at Cary/Raleigh for trips to Florida. Such a train would provide many possible useful intercity pair trips.

It would be a 594 mile trip, so it would require state support. Yes, the current leadership and legislatures of four states the route goes through are not going to support such a corridor train, but if there is enough expansion of intercity passenger rail in FL, VA, and elsewhere, after a couple of election cycles with changes in the state leadership & political makeup, AL, GA., and NC might be willing to do so. They could just ignore SC.

Yes, a BHM to RGH train is not likely in the near term and would be remain slow west of Charlotte without capital investments in track upgrades However the four major stops along the route - BHM, ATL, CLT, RGH - are all either funded to build new inrtermodal stations or in advanced planning to do so. That counts for something.

 

[henryj]

Bring back Chicago to Florida via Atlanta before you do anything else. Restore New Orleans to Florida. There are so many gaps in the current system now that talking about second trains on routes that already have service is ludicrous. Bring back the Pioneer and Desert Wind. Extend the Heartland Flyer to KC and MSP and south to Houston. Connect Fort Worth/Dallas to Denver. Restore the Broadway Limited. Extend St Louis/KC service to Denver on the west end and Wash DC east. When you get through with all that, then we can discuss second trains on various routes.

 

[jis]

While at it restore the National Limited too, well, sort of. Perhaps as a section of the Cardinal!

 

[Ryan]

I'd much rather add service to places where there is demonstrated demand than add it to places where there is no service and no idea who much demand there is.

Chicago to Florida via Atlanta isn't going to happen without a massive infusion of cash to get speeds to what they would need to be.

Doubled up service ATL-WAS can be done with little to no infrastructure improvements. It's all about the bang for the buck.

 

[Anderson]

Setting aside the Sunset East, I think the Card-to-STL is one of the more likely additions to the system. After all, it got a serious look-over in the PIP, and while redirecting the train to STL entirely was rejected, a STL section got an "honorable mention" of sorts.

Also...I suspect that the best shot at additional LD service would involve a partial kick-in from one or more states involved (theoretically, a North Coast Hiawatha getting partial support from MT or a Pioneer getting it from ID).

 

[MrFSS]

Bill Haithcoat asked me to post these. He will respond to them.

Southern RR March 25, 1956​

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Thanks Tom! Bill's Famous Southern RR Timetables that he's so Kindly Shared with Some of Us!

Bill: At the Top of The Southerner Table it says: "Reservation Charge Applying!" :unsure: Is this the same as Extra Fare Trains?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

:hi: Thanks Tom! Bill's Famous Southern RR Timetables that he's so Kindly Shared with Some of Us!
Bill: At the Top of The Southerner Table it says: "Reservation Charge Applying!" :unsure: Is this the same as Extra Fare Trains?

Not exactly. It was to take care of the paperwork expense involved in reserving in advance exact coach reservation It was uually about 50 cents to 1.50 per distance.

Funny thing, some trains which had true coach reservations charged that fare and some did not. I have no idea why

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Clarification// the above is not a complete Southern timetable but only the New York to New Orleans trains. Date is March 1956

 

[Notelvis]

Bringing Birmingham back in the mix -
There is still a house track in place there where a sleeper and couple of coaches on the Crescent could do a same day turn...... not possible in Atlanta as the two tracks through Peachtree Station are both used by mainline freight trains.

Well, no, the Crescent had cars from New York removed in Atlanta for several years after the downtown stations were closed

There is a track branching off to the left of the station More importantly there is a yard north of the statioon where the cars were parked during the day, and easily seen from MARTA

But if I'm not mistaken Bill, doesn't the track branching off from the mainline at Peachtree Station dead end just as soon as it crosses I-75 due to the Atlantic Station development?

At what point did Amtrak stop cutting cars off the Crescent in ATL?

 

[xyzzy]

NCDOT is not interested in having any of the Piedmonts merged into a LD train. Timekeeping of the southbound Carolinian is enough of a headache for NCDOT already. Nor does anyone at NCDOT care about the Atlanta-NC market. They are fixated, right or wrong, on intrastate NC and on NC-NYP.

There is a lead near Brookwood Station that used to reach into the Atlantic Steel plant from the north end. The bridge over I-75 is still there, but the track goes nowhere. When cars were being stored in Atlanta, they were pulled off the southbound by a switcher that took them back north half a mile to Armour Yard -- a minor freight yard where the 1910 cutoff joins the original Southern main line that ran east of downtown (a spur now abandoned). In the afternoon, those cars were pulled down to Howell Tower. When the northbound Crescent went by, the switcher would shove behind it and couple up the additional cars. The process would be easier with a new station in Atlanta, but it would still require a switcher twice a day and the expense of cleaning cars during the day in Atlanta. Amtrak tired of the expenses in Atlanta and quit doing it.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bringing Birmingham back in the mix -
There is still a house track in place there where a sleeper and couple of coaches on the Crescent could do a same day turn...... not possible in Atlanta as the two tracks through Peachtree Station are both used by mainline freight trains.

Well, no, the Crescent had cars from New York removed in Atlanta for several years after the downtown stations were closed

There is a track branching off to the left of the station More importantly there is a yard north of the statioon where the cars were parked during the day, and easily seen from MARTA

But if I'm not mistaken Bill, doesn't the track branching off from the mainline at Peachtree Station dead end just as soon as it crosses I-75 due to the Atlantic Station development?

At what point did Amtrak stop cutting cars off the Crescent in ATL?

I remember the cut out cars as being heritage,so I guess it stopped when that happened xyzzy has answered about about tracks.

 

[henryj]

I remember the cut out cars as being heritage,so I guess it stopped when that happened xyzzy has answered about about tracks.

The last time I rode it the sleepers were still heritage and they added some of them at Atlanta. I flew to Atlanta and then took the Crescent to DC. It was a business trip. So that was in the early 1980's. I have never ridden the NOL to Atlanta section. The cab fare from the airport to that little Amtrak station was pretty high. But at least he found the station. lol. During the 'good ole days' up into the early 1960's I just never had the opportunity to ride east out of New Orleans. I always went through St Louis.

 

[Ryan]

The process would be easier with a new station in Atlanta, but it would still require a switcher twice a day and the expense of cleaning cars during the day in Atlanta.

Not if the station had it's own platform track connected at both ends (which is what I recall reading in one of the many ATL threads). Headed south, just drop the cars off the tail. Headed north, pull past the station, throw the switch and back down on them. Easy as pie. If you drop a coach, the cleaners will have to turn the seats as the clean every day. Sleepers can just run facing the same way all the time.

 

[Notelvis]

At no point do I claim that what I'd like to see is realistic!

Heck - left to my own devices I would want to see an NCDOT sponsored train depart Asheville, NC around 4pm every afternoon running to Salisbury, Charlotte, and then Columbia, SC.

I'd like to see this train handle a through sleeper to/from Miami via the Silver Star too. This train would make our twice yearly trips to visit relatives in Florida be something I could really get excited about!

 

[Phil S]

Henryj wrote:

Connect Fort Worth/Dallas to Denver. Restore the Broadway Limited. Extend St Louis/KC service to Denver on the west end and Wash DC east. When you get through with all that, then we can discuss second trains on various routes.

Henry -- Ah shucks, daydreaming is fun! But now that you mention DFW/DEN, what sort of service has that city pair ever had? Best I can tell from my Well-Worn Handy RR Atlas of the US (1978) C&S ran from Cheyenne through Denver and Colorado Springs to at least Trinidad and maybe on to Dalhart, TX. From there it was FW &D to Fort Worth. (The NM and TX maps disagree as to who owned the Trinidad/Dalhart section - maybe they shared?

In any case, was there ever a through train? Sleeper? Seems possible that there's never been decent service DFW/DEN. Just curious.

 

[afigg]

Clarification// the above is not a complete Southern timetable but only the New York to New Orleans trains. Date is March 1956

Thanks for the 1956 schedules. Interesting that in 1956, the Crescent departed NYP at 2 PM, departed WAS at 6:10 PM, arrived ATL at 8:00 AM. In 2013, the Crescent departs NYP at 2:15 PM, departs WAS at 6:30 PM, arrives ATL at 8:13 AM. Remarkably little change in the schedule and trip time over 57 years.
The 1956 trains to Roanoke & Bristol and Tennessee might get resurrected in some form as Virginia will spend money to extend/restore service to Roanoke by 2016/1017 and extension to Bristol is in the long range plans. If VA spends several hundred millions in track upgrades for passenger trains to Lynchburg, Roanoke, Bristol, that could, in 10? years, open the possibility of Amtrak asking TN to support a LD train from NYP to however far into TN the state is willing to pay for it.

 

[xyzzy]

I believe NCDOT will serve Asheville (and Wilmington), but it's probably 20 years off. About 8 years ago, NS quoted $145 million to rehab the Asheville-Salisbury line for passenger service. Reaching Wilmington would also be a nine-figure project. Problem is, there is no funding for nine-figure projects at the NC General Assembly, and even if there were SEHSR is already in the queue.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Clarification// the above is not a complete Southern timetable but only the New York to New Orleans trains. Date is March 1956

Thanks for the 1956 schedules. Interesting that in 1956, the Crescent departed NYP at 2 PM, departed WAS at 6:10 PM, arrived ATL at 8:00 AM. In 2013, the Crescent departs NYP at 2:15 PM, departs WAS at 6:30 PM, arrives ATL at 8:13 AM. Remarkably little change in the schedule and trip time over 57 years.
The 1956 trains to Roanoke & Bristol and Tennessee might get resurrected in some form as Virginia will spend money to extend/restore service to Roanoke by 2016/1017 and extension to Bristol is in the long range plans. If VA spends several hundred millions in track upgrades for passenger trains to Lynchburg, Roanoke, Bristol, that could, in 10? years, open the possibility of Amtrak asking TN to support a LD train from NYP to however far into TN the state is willing to pay for it.

That the southbound Crescent still operates at so similar of a schedule and does well makes me long for the L&N Georgian to still exist. What we could do today if there was still a 6 pm departure from Atlanta and an 8.25 a m arrival into Chicago..I know,if is full of freights,etc just dreaming.

 

[AlanB]

There's also an issue with HEP getting stressed beyond about 18 cars (which is coincidentally the limit of the longest platforms at NYP and some other stations)...so I think you could extend to 18 cars, but not beyond. The Florida Special from 1956/7 ran about 16 cars long, so I assume that a cap in the 16-18 range is reasonable: Probably 16 on a regular basis and 18 at the peaks (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.).

Actually it depends on which train one is talking about as to just how long one can go. The Auto Train can't get much past 18 cars to my knowledge. But that's because of certain factors:

• The Bi-level cars require more power because they have more lights, bathrooms, and HVAC concerns.
• The AT runs with 3 dining cars & 2 cafe cars, all of which bring a heavy power load due to the many refrigerators & freezers.

But for example, had Amtrak followed through with the original Stimulus plans to expand the Empire Builder, I suspect that they probably could have pushed that train to 20 cars. It would have only had 1 regular diner, 1 CCC, and 1 Sightseer lounge car. That would have reduced the power load by comparison to the AT's 5 food service cars.

And if we're talking about the single level equipment used on the Crescent here, well again single level cars draw less power than Superliner cars. So you might well be able to bump things up to 24 cars or more, depending on the number of food service cars.