Should more stations be manned again?

[the_traveler]

Has the idea of doing what the airlines do and have e-tickets been thought of for Amtrak?
I recently flew to Chicago and back and never talked to an agent, except at boarding. I printed my boarding passes on line and walked up to the gate to board.

Would there be inherent problems with letting Amtrak passengers print their own tickets on-line at home to take with them to board at non-staffed stations?

I guess there would be or maybe they'd be doing it already.

The conductors would have to have a way to verify that the eticket was real which I imagine would take a complete overhaul of the systems. Well they need to be overhauled anyway.

And the gate agent or the "Security" checkpoint at the airport do? :huh: If you don't check bags, you don't go to the ticket counter, and most passengers do not even go to the counter at the gate.

 

[AlanB]

Has the idea of doing what the airlines do and have e-tickets been thought of for Amtrak?
I recently flew to Chicago and back and never talked to an agent, except at boarding. I printed my boarding passes on line and walked up to the gate to board.

Would there be inherent problems with letting Amtrak passengers print their own tickets on-line at home to take with them to board at non-staffed stations?

I guess there would be or maybe they'd be doing it already.

The conductors would have to have a way to verify that the eticket was real which I imagine would take a complete overhaul of the systems. Well they need to be overhauled anyway.

Amtrak is working on E-ticketing and I believe that a test is either underway or should be shortly in California. Conductors will carry a small handheld scanner to zap the barcode on the print out.

Assuming no major problems are found, it'll probably be another year to two before it's rolled out nationwide.

 

[transit54]

Has the idea of doing what the airlines do and have e-tickets been thought of for Amtrak?
I recently flew to Chicago and back and never talked to an agent, except at boarding. I printed my boarding passes on line and walked up to the gate to board.

Would there be inherent problems with letting Amtrak passengers print their own tickets on-line at home to take with them to board at non-staffed stations?

I guess there would be or maybe they'd be doing it already.

The conductors would have to have a way to verify that the eticket was real which I imagine would take a complete overhaul of the systems. Well they need to be overhauled anyway.

And the gate agent or the "Security" checkpoint at the airport do? :huh: If you don't check bags, you don't go to the ticket counter, and most passengers do not even go to the counter at the gate.

Sure they do. When your boarding pass is scanned at the gate, it compares that pass to a real time database of all ticket holders for the flight. If you printed your boarding pass, called the airline and canceled and then showed up at the gate, you will not get on the plane! The system updates in real time and the validity of your ticket is instantly verified.

On a train, this isn't possible without full time wireless connectivity and overhauling the Amtrak system to support eticketing. The major challenge, as I see it, is provide eticketing service in areas with poor cellular coverage. I'd assume whatever device conductors were using would download a manifest each time it was in cell service, but what do you do with the passenger who books at the last minute from a station that has no cell service whatsoever?

It's just that much harder to eticket on a train. When Amtrak does it, I'll bet you'll see it in the Northeast Corridor California (edited in response to Alan's above post) first, and slowly expand to other corridors with decent cell service, while taking quite a while to be deployed on LD trains.

In the meantime, though, I don't see why Amtrak can't overhaul its system to fix some of the problems associated with handwritten tickets.

 

[VentureForth]

Has the idea of doing what the airlines do and have e-tickets been thought of for Amtrak?
I recently flew to Chicago and back and never talked to an agent, except at boarding. I printed my boarding passes on line and walked up to the gate to board.

Would there be inherent problems with letting Amtrak passengers print their own tickets on-line at home to take with them to board at non-staffed stations?

I guess there would be or maybe they'd be doing it already.

The conductors would have to have a way to verify that the eticket was real which I imagine would take a complete overhaul of the systems. Well they need to be overhauled anyway.

And the gate agent or the "Security" checkpoint at the airport do? :huh: If you don't check bags, you don't go to the ticket counter, and most passengers do not even go to the counter at the gate.

Sure they do. When your boarding pass is scanned at the gate, it compares that pass to a real time database of all ticket holders for the flight. If you printed your boarding pass, called the airline and canceled and then showed up at the gate, you will not get on the plane! The system updates in real time and the validity of your ticket is instantly verified.

On a train, this isn't possible without full time wireless connectivity and overhauling the Amtrak system to support eticketing. The major challenge, as I see it, is provide eticketing service in areas with poor cellular coverage. I'd assume whatever device conductors were using would download a manifest each time it was in cell service, but what do you do with the passenger who books at the last minute from a station that has no cell service whatsoever?

It's just that much harder to eticket on a train. When Amtrak does it, I'll bet you'll see it in the Northeast Corridor California (edited in response to Alan's above post) first, and slowly expand to other corridors with decent cell service, while taking quite a while to be deployed on LD trains.

In the meantime, though, I don't see why Amtrak can't overhaul its system to fix some of the problems associated with handwritten tickets.

This lapse in communication already exists. Right now, I can book and pay for a ticket from WHL to ALB, 30 minute prior to departure. I can print my booking confirmation, but there is NO way I can actually get a real ticket. Conductor already left Ticonderoga and doesn't have an updated manifest. NO way to verify my reservation is good other than to call it in after I get on board - if he can get a cell signal. With more and more QT machines going in, the forgiveness for not having a valid ticket when boarding is going away. As for a free ride, it's still likely not to happen. If you cancel said trip after printing confirmation, the conductor WILL have your reservation number. When in the course of an audit, it comes up cancelled, they'll just simply un-cancel it and charge the card.

 

[Tony]

Sure they do. When your boarding pass is scanned at the gate, it compares that pass to a real time database of all ticket holders for the flight. If you printed your boarding pass, called the airline and canceled and then showed up at the gate, you will not get on the plane!

Good point. Could you image if they didn't check any one's tickets until after takeoff? As humorous as that might sound, that is how Amtrak currently works. So, it would not be to just change to eTickets, but to completely change how tickets are collected to at stations.

On the flip side, who many unmanned airports are there?

 

[transit54]

This lapse in communication already exists. Right now, I can book and pay for a ticket from WHL to ALB, 30 minute prior to departure. I can print my booking confirmation, but there is NO way I can actually get a real ticket. Conductor already left Ticonderoga and doesn't have an updated manifest. NO way to verify my reservation is good other than to call it in after I get on board - if he can get a cell signal. With more and more QT machines going in, the forgiveness for not having a valid ticket when boarding is going away. As for a free ride, it's still likely not to happen. If you cancel said trip after printing confirmation, the conductor WILL have your reservation number. When in the course of an audit, it comes up cancelled, they'll just simply un-cancel it and charge the card.

Very true. However, I think the difference here is that in an eticketing system I would have prepaid for the ticket. So it's much more relevant if I have an actual reservation. In the current scenario, even if I'm not on the printed manifest because I make the reservation shortly before departure, the money will still be collected on board. Otherwise I could easily forge a "train boarding pass" and get on the train without actually having a valid ticket and without paying my fare.

 

[VentureForth]

This lapse in communication already exists. Right now, I can book and pay for a ticket from WHL to ALB, 30 minute prior to departure. I can print my booking confirmation, but there is NO way I can actually get a real ticket. Conductor already left Ticonderoga and doesn't have an updated manifest. NO way to verify my reservation is good other than to call it in after I get on board - if he can get a cell signal. With more and more QT machines going in, the forgiveness for not having a valid ticket when boarding is going away. As for a free ride, it's still likely not to happen. If you cancel said trip after printing confirmation, the conductor WILL have your reservation number. When in the course of an audit, it comes up cancelled, they'll just simply un-cancel it and charge the card.

Very true. However, I think the difference here is that in an eticketing system I would have prepaid for the ticket. So it's much more relevant if I have an actual reservation. In the current scenario, even if I'm not on the printed manifest because I make the reservation shortly before departure, the money will still be collected on board. Otherwise I could easily forge a "train boarding pass" and get on the train without actually having a valid ticket and without paying my fare.

I may be wrong, but I think that I CAN pay for the tickets up to about 15 minutes before departure. Interestingly, the paper that I print out (the reservation confirmation) is not much different than printing out a boarding pass. The confirmation has a typical bar code (ie: thin line thick line thin space thick space) as opposed to a blockier type of barcode, but that's just software.

 

[the_traveler]

Interestingly, the paper that I print out (the reservation confirmation) is not much different than printing out a boarding pass. The confirmation has a typical bar code (ie: thin line thick line thin space thick space) as opposed to a blockier type of barcode, but that's just software.

Good point!

The confirmation page has a bar code that you scan at the QT, and there is no way to get this confirmation page unless you have already paid for and bought the ticket (you just didn't print it yet). So what would be the difference between

1. Giving the conductor this page - and having it scanned later
   
2. Printing a "boarding pass" and giving it to the conductor - and having it scanned later
   
3. Giving the conductor a ticket - and having it scanned later
   

:huh:

Maybe I'm missing something, but don't they all need to be scanned? :huh:

 

[transit54]

I may be wrong, but I think that I CAN pay for the tickets up to about 15 minutes before departure. Interestingly, the paper that I print out (the reservation confirmation) is not much different than printing out a boarding pass. The confirmation has a typical bar code (ie: thin line thick line thin space thick space) as opposed to a blockier type of barcode, but that's just software.

Yes, you can pay for a ticket pretty much right up to departure if purchasing from an agent or Quiktrak or departing from a station with one of those things. But at a station without them, you cannot pay for a ticket if booking less than three days in advance - that payment takes place on the train and you get a handwritten ticket. For tickets purchased between 3 and 9 days, you need to pay for express shipping ($15) and beyond that you get your tickets mailed via First Class Mail.

However, none of that translates to eticketing, because as long as you have a ticket with paper ticketing, the conductor knows you paid. In an e-ticketing scenario in which you board a train in an area with no cell service with a ticket purchased very close to departure, how would a conductor know that you had a valid reservation if that information hadn't downloaded to whatever device he was using to verify the tickets?

I suppose that it could be designed with an 'offline mode' that stores information about the reservation until a connection can be established. Then, if there's a problem with your reservation, the conductor can come back to your seat and address the issue once cell service is reestablished. This could be open to abuse, though, if there are large, multi-hour stretches between cell service on LD trains. Another option would be to have a centralized on-board computer that could download information by satellite if no cell service was present and then the conductor's handheld unit would download the information from that, though satellite connections can get very expensive.

I can also see other methods like using 2D barcodes with encrypted information to make boarding passes more secure so there's less of a fraud issue. 2D barcodes can contain much more information than typical barcodes, so more complex reservation information could be represented, rather than just a simple reservation number that a typical barcode would hold. Sorry if I'm getting to technical here...

 

[transit54]

Interestingly, the paper that I print out (the reservation confirmation) is not much different than printing out a boarding pass. The confirmation has a typical bar code (ie: thin line thick line thin space thick space) as opposed to a blockier type of barcode, but that's just software.

Good point!

The confirmation page has a bar code that you scan at the QT, and there is no way to get this confirmation page unless you have already paid for and bought the ticket (you just didn't print it yet). So what would be the difference between

1. Giving the conductor this page - and having it scanned later
   
2. Printing a "boarding pass" and giving it to the conductor - and having it scanned later
   
3. Giving the conductor a ticket - and having it scanned later
   

:huh:

Maybe I'm missing something, but don't they all need to be scanned? :huh:

The ticket is printed on specialized ticket stock, so the conductor knows that it's authentic. Ticket stock is highly controlled, much like cash. So scanning is not a necessary part of the conductor validating the ticket. That just happens on the back end of things for AGR and other purposes. It does not happen on the train.

Both giving the conduct page you'd normally scan at a QT machine or a boarding pass would require an e-ticketing system, as the authenticity of that page needs to be verified - otherwise I could just design a nice looking page like that and print it out myself (very, very easy to do). The difference is the ticket stock, which is why you need to get tickets mailed, stop at a QT or see an agent before boarding the train.

Basically, if any scanning needs to happen on the train, eticketing needs to be in place and that involves the difficulties that we've discussed above.

 

[the_traveler]

Yes, you can pay for a ticket pretty much right up to departure if purchasing from an agent or Quiktrak or departing from a station with one of those things. But at a station without them, you cannot pay for a ticket if booking less than three days in advance - that payment takes place on the train and you get a handwritten ticket. For tickets purchased between 3 and 9 days, you need to pay for express shipping ($15) and beyond that you get your tickets mailed via First Class Mail.
However, none of that translates to eticketing, because as long as you have a ticket with paper ticketing, the conductor knows you paid. In an e-ticketing scenario in which you board a train in an area with no cell service with a ticket purchased very

Are you sure? :huh:

Last October (on one of my many trips ), I had to purchase a few segments. I set up my reservations so I can print the tickets for the next segment as I travel. I made the reservations in IIRC August, but the tickets were not printed until October.

The charges were on my August credit card statement! Last month, I made reservations for my August trip. (Again I won't print the tickets until August.) The charges were on my May credit card statement!

 

[transit54]

Yes, you can pay for a ticket pretty much right up to departure if purchasing from an agent or Quiktrak or departing from a station with one of those things. But at a station without them, you cannot pay for a ticket if booking less than three days in advance - that payment takes place on the train and you get a handwritten ticket. For tickets purchased between 3 and 9 days, you need to pay for express shipping ($15) and beyond that you get your tickets mailed via First Class Mail.
However, none of that translates to eticketing, because as long as you have a ticket with paper ticketing, the conductor knows you paid. In an e-ticketing scenario in which you board a train in an area with no cell service with a ticket purchased very

Are you sure? :huh:

Last October (on one of my many trips ), I had to purchase a few segments. I set up my reservations so I can print the tickets for the next segment as I travel. I made the reservations in IIRC August, but the tickets were not printed until October.

The charges were on my August credit card statement! Last month, I made reservations for my August trip. (Again I won't print the tickets until August.) The charges were on my May credit card statement!

Right...you're charged at the time you reserved the tickets, not at the time you print them. What I was saying is that you can purchase tickets right up until departure at a staffed station. For instance, I once purchased Acela tickets on the way to Boston South Station on my Blackberry (using Amtrak's mobile site) then went to a Quiktrak, printed the tickets and hopped on board all within a span of about 25 minutes.

My point was that if you purchased tickets right before boarding using an e-ticketing system, the conductor would have no way to verify the purchase if there wasn't cell coverage anywhere in the area, because he can't rely just on a print out or reservation number. He needs to verify that printout/reservation is valid. That's not an issue with conventional ticketing.

 

[the_traveler]

2) I can't make a reservation more than three days in advance for a ticket on the train, and thus can't use discounts/promotion codes, etc unless I'm booking more than nine days out to get my ticket mailed. Even if I'm booking without such codes, I can't lock in a lower bucket between 3-9 days out.3) I can't book online or with Julie - I have to talk to an agent.

I've lost your point! :blink:

If the reservation confirmation page shows that it was paid, why can you not book online? :huh: And why can you not book more than 3 days out? :huh:

 

[VentureForth]

Interestingly, the paper that I print out (the reservation confirmation) is not much different than printing out a boarding pass. The confirmation has a typical bar code (ie: thin line thick line thin space thick space) as opposed to a blockier type of barcode, but that's just software.

Good point!

The confirmation page has a bar code that you scan at the QT, and there is no way to get this confirmation page unless you have already paid for and bought the ticket (you just didn't print it yet). So what would be the difference between

1. Giving the conductor this page - and having it scanned later
   
2. Printing a "boarding pass" and giving it to the conductor - and having it scanned later
   
3. Giving the conductor a ticket - and having it scanned later
   

:huh:

Maybe I'm missing something, but don't they all need to be scanned? :huh:

The ticket is printed on specialized ticket stock, so the conductor knows that it's authentic. Ticket stock is highly controlled, much like cash. So scanning is not a necessary part of the conductor validating the ticket. That just happens on the back end of things for AGR and other purposes. It does not happen on the train.

Both giving the conduct page you'd normally scan at a QT machine or a boarding pass would require an e-ticketing system, as the authenticity of that page needs to be verified - otherwise I could just design a nice looking page like that and print it out myself (very, very easy to do). The difference is the ticket stock, which is why you need to get tickets mailed, stop at a QT or see an agent before boarding the train.

Basically, if any scanning needs to happen on the train, eticketing needs to be in place and that involves the difficulties that we've discussed above.

That is sort of the point of this thread (or at least this tangent). The holy card stock is not really necessary. Airlines went away from specialized ticket stock years ago. With a descent scanner and onboard satcom/satphone link, you can easily wirelessly scan a boarding pass printed on lousy paper with lousy ink and determine it to be authentic. Usually the homeprinted boarding pass contains enough information that if it won't scan, the information can be validated. Incorporate a credit card scanner, and s/he can quickly do the same sort of task that they do today, but much faster. Walmart went to a barcode-fitted handheld PDA that wirelessly transmits to a computer in the store. Seeing that the conductor is also responsible for the train's movement (which I don't agree with, thanks to century old railroading heritage and unions), speeding up this task could allow the conductor to spend more time running the train. To that end, I still think that the conductor needs to ride in the power car with the engineer and that tickets should be handled by an onboard purser, but that's another topic ALL together.

 

[transit54]

2) I can't make a reservation more than three days in advance for a ticket on the train, and thus can't use discounts/promotion codes, etc unless I'm booking more than nine days out to get my ticket mailed. Even if I'm booking without such codes, I can't lock in a lower bucket between 3-9 days out.3) I can't book online or with Julie - I have to talk to an agent.

I've lost your point! :blink:

If the reservation confirmation page shows that it was paid, why can you not book online? :huh: And why can you not book more than 3 days out? :huh:

Because I'm traveling from an unstaffed station - the system won't even let you buy a ticket. To clarify, I'm talking about what I have to go through now, under a paper ticketing scenario, not under an e-ticketing scenario.

For example, go to Amtrak.com now and type in ESX as the departure station and BRP as the arrival (or you could use anything else you want as the arrival, but ESX to BRP is the trip I make all the time). ESX (Essex Jct, VT) is an unstaffed station. Set the date of travel for tomorrow and see what happens. You'll get an error saying to call Amtrak for more info. Now if you set the date between 3 and 9 days out, the only option is to pay $15 for express shipping, which is ridiculous to have to pay $15 to get your tickets. Amtrak will not let you reserve a spot for payment on the train more than 3 days out.

So to make a long story short, you can't even get to a confirmation page. When you call Amtrak and talk to an agent, they will give you a reservation number and a boarding pass number and a price, then you will give those to the conductor who will hand write you a ticket and collect payment.

But yes, eticketing would make this all possible. My point in the post that you're quoting is that if you could fix those three issues, I wouldn't have a problem just sticking with the current system of handwriting tickets. It's those issues to make it a real pain to not live near a staffed/QTed station.

 

[transit54]

That is sort of the point of this thread (or at least this tangent). The holy card stock is not really necessary. Airlines went away from specialized ticket stock years ago. With a descent scanner and onboard satcom/satphone link, you can easily wirelessly scan a boarding pass printed on lousy paper with lousy ink and determine it to be authentic. Usually the homeprinted boarding pass contains enough information that if it won't scan, the information can be validated. Incorporate a credit card scanner, and s/he can quickly do the same sort of task that they do today, but much faster.

Completely agree, and I think this is what Amtrak will be moving to down the road when they go to eticketing. I think it's going to take quite a while to get there, though.

 

[the_traveler]

I couldn't get it to print, but request ESX to BRA (2 unmanned stations) for a AAA fare for July 17. (Note it is more than 9 days away!) You can qualify for a AAA fare!

If there is enough time, besides the Express Mail option for $15, they also give you a choice to mail the tickets by regular mail - and there is NO CHARGE!

 

[transit54]

I couldn't get it to print, but request ESX to BRA (2 unmanned stations) for a AAA fare for July 17. (Note it is more than 9 days away!) You can qualify for a AAA fare!
If there is enough time, besides the Express Mail option for $15, they also give you a choice to mail the tickets by regular mail - and there is NO CHARGE!

Oh, absolutely that will work. I have a whole stack of ticket stubs from MPR to ESX, WAB to ESX, etc that I had ordered more than 9 days in advance with a NARP discount. If I want to do an evening in Waterbury or Montpelier, I just take one of my agency's commuter buses down (free for me) and take the train back a few hours later.

But what I hate is that if I want to take a last minute trip, not only do I have to call and book (not a huge deal) but that I run into issues with getting my AGR points to post. That just shouldn't be.

Because of this, I'm almost reluctant to travel Amtrak unless I can make plans more than nine days in advance, which is ridiculous. Until the aforementioned Waterbury trip, I had managed to avoid paying on the train, but it was bound to happen at some point. Amtrak just needs a better system.