Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner

[Anderson]

Those few who remember the passenger trains of the 1930s through the early 1950s no doubt remember them as being better than Amtrak.

Those who only remember the passenger trains of the late 1960s certainly think Amtrak was a LOT better -- the late-period Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, Erie Lackawanna, New Haven, B&M stories I've read -- horrorshows. Under Alfred Perlman, NYC often didn't even have working lights or heat in the cars, apparently.

Having looked into it pretty deeply, the point at which passenger trains started to lose money was the federal funding of free roads, combined with widespread cheap automobile sales running on cheap gasoline, combined with free parking on citiy streets, in the 1920s. Passenger trains were often profitable right through the 1910s. They couldn't compete financially with the cheap autos, cheap gas, and government-provided free roads of the 1920s. The autos also blocked the tracks of the streetcars, so this is when the first big round of streetcar and interurban company bankruptcies happened. The train lines with their own right-of-way held up better, got some boosts during the 1930s (when more people couldn't afford cars, and parking meters first appeared), and got a big boost during WWII when gasoline was rationed... but the financial death knell was the free Interstates of the 1950s.

I'm not sure trains ever really competed with airplanes. Commercial airplanes were an expensive luxury for the rich from their introduction until, frankly, deregulation in the 1980s. It was the subsidies to passenger cars which caused passenger trains to become unprofitable.

I agree with most of that assessment, but I'd point out that from what I can tell, pre-Amtrak railfares were often on par with what we'd call "high bucket", so the "luxury disparity" wasn't as great as one might make it out to be.

Trains did compete with planes for some time in many cases, I believe: I think folks forget that while there were some non-stops, a lot of flights were "locals" where you'd have to throw an hour or two onto the schedule because the plane would be making stops along the way. Look up an Official Guide from the 1950s and you'll see what I mean. Moreover, until jet airliners became a thing, there were going to be plenty of cases where a well-run first or second tier train beat the heck out of spending half a day in a DC-3. Even taking the specs of a DC-6, 311-315 MPH cruising speed is going to get you across the country, yes, but it's going to be somewhere in the range of 9-12 hours on the timetable (depending on whether you make a technical stop or any intermediate passenger stops). Even NYC-CHI is going to run you at least three hours in the air for a direct flight while I think we're all a bit spoiled thinking about that being able to be knocked down to a quick 90-minute trip.

Trains might not beat out planes New York-Los Angeles, but when compared to a multi-stop flight New York-Chicago, the overnight options of the Broadway and Twentieth Century did seem to hold their own for quite a while (the Broadway, in particular, was still turning a profit into the mid-60s as an all-Pullman IIRC...I strongly suspect that train's stranglehold on Philly after the B&O cut service north of Baltimore did wonders for propping it up).

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

(Borrowing a pic link from another thread here)

This is how Congress envisions the Dining cars, during peak seating.

 

[neroden]

Airline regulation in the US is a whole 'nother story and is actually really interesting. Basically each airline had a "franchised" set of routes, with very minimal competition allowed on any given route (maybe two carriers). Then the prices were fixed (!!) so price competition wasn't possible either. The airlines proceeded to compete based on service quality.

And I have to correct myself, deregulation was under Carter in the late 1970s. The immediate result was that quality dropped massively, and then most of the airlines went bankrupt. There were then some startups and spinoffs. Following bailouts, quality dropped again and there were rounds of mergers, and then more bankruptcies. Then the nickel-and-diming started, more bankruptcies, and then 9/11 and more bankruptcies and another bailout.... For some reason investors seemed endlessly willing to throw money into the pit of the airline industry, despite Warren Buffett's famous line about it being a money-loser for its entire history.

But anyway, pre-1970s, the airline model was high prices, oligopoly, showoff travel for the rich or dramatic. Trains may have been more practical, but the point is that airlines weren't really practical at all: except for international flights (where they completely displaced the steamships), airline travel was *junkets*, a lifestyle choice or an business expense for a business in a big hurry -- not a choice of practicality. In the 1950s the typical holiday for the middle-class person was NOT by airplane; airplanes were for the "jet set".

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

There was a entirely different set of social standards back in the 1950's. Its true, for those fortunate enough to travel by air, they wore their "Sunday best" on-board the plane. However, at that same time, people also wore they "Sunday best" even for baseball. Its difficult to understand, but if you look at pictures of the spectators at baseball games back then, the guys are wearing button shirts with ties, and many with a sports jacket on too. Today, its difficult to believe that anyone would sit in the afternoon summer sun, wearing a shirt and tie, to watch a baseball game.

 

[jis]

As I recall even in 1965 the trains were not necessarily that affordable, though definitely more affordable than planes, specially the ones that we mostly talk about these days, the premium trains. I recall that on more than one occasion, purely due to financial reasons, we, who were not exactly floating in cash, chose to take Greyhound rather than the train. The additional fact that the train schedules were atrocious for the one or two trains available per day didn't help either. Trying to get from Boston to Niagara Falls was an outright chore by train and easy by Greyhound, for example.

Indeed we flew domestically only on conjunction tickets with international legs and never a standalone O/D within the US.

 

[Bob Dylan]

As usual jis' post is spot on!

Anyone who ever flew on a DC-3 Puddle jumper flight has never forgotten that it wasn't exactly the height of luxury, and as jis said, it wasn't a bargain!

All things considered Passenger Trains were still a much more comfortable way to travel although the "Run 'em off" campaigns being conducted by SP and other Class Is made for less than pleasant memories!

I too rode many miles on the Dog and Trailways, including a Cross Country trip from San Diego to New London when transfered by the Navy in 1962.

This helped create my life long dislike of long bus trips! I'd rather fly than take a bus!

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

 

[jis]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.

 

[greatcats]

To answer your question CSX, lousy idea. From a management view it may make some sense. Otherwise, terrible along with other lame brained ideas having to do with the food service.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.

Alright.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

To answer your question CSX, lousy idea. From a management view it may make some sense. Otherwise, terrible along with other lame brained ideas having to do with the food service.

I can agree. It may cut down costs in sleeping cars... BUT at the same time, that would also mean some meals that passengers liked from the diner is no longer available. I'm definitely gonna miss the pancakes on the Silver Star, but also I did hate that the biscuits and croissants were wheat instead of standard white.

 

[Seaboard92]

When we are looking at trains the SS and SM are two entirely different trains. The SS has more intermediate and shorts then the SM has. Columbia, SC can normally board forty plus people a night on one of the two trains. And the intra Florida market is also a lot of shorts. So diners don't do as well in short hail trains. Why would I spend ten dollars for Amchow burger when I get off in three hours and can go to Red Robin and pay roughly the same for a higher quality product.

The SM is more of a long city pair train with a lot of NEC-FL traffic. Which are more likely to use the diner because they don't have the option of better food. I miss the dining car just as much as everyone. It's quintessential railroad if you ask me. But I can see the justification somewhat.

 

[jis]

The one enhancement in the SS I would like to see is to upgrade the Cafe to sell Cardinal style precooked meals across the counter Buffet style. If they can do that without adding to costs too much that would I think be a win win.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

The on enhancement in the SS I would like to see is to upgrade the Cafe to sell Cardinal style precooked meals across the counter Buffet style. If they can do that without adding to costs too much that would I think be a win win.

That should be an easy solution considering Walmart (or your favorite grocery) has 2-3 whole aisles of nothing but frozen "slam in the microwave-stir once halfway through" meals, many which are pretty good, even without any additional doctoring. Though I usually find the portions to be too small, but that is another whole issue

 

[greatcats]

jis- I like your idea. Buffet style dinner service with lower sleeper fares makes some sense. But that present snack bar format does not cut it. If I were to ride that train, I would bring my own food and only use the snack bar as a supplement, which is what I did on the DB train Basel to Copenhagen, now gone.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.

Well, to be fair here, this thread is clearly marked as being for a discussion of the new menu.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.

Are you the one who locked it? Is there a place that defines when there is a need to start a new thread? If you want to discuss a particular issue it seems a shame it has to get thrown in with many other pages.

On to the topic that he asked....

 

[jis]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.

Are you the one who locked it? Is there a place that defines when there is a need to start a new thread? If you want to discuss a particular issue it seems a shame it has to get thrown in with many other pages.

On to the topic that he asked....

Nope. I don't get to do such things. I just get to observe, suggest, report and speculate on the obvious consequences.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I understand this is a already a thread including the diner, but I just started a different topic about the Silver Star diner, just to get opinions about whether it was a mistake or a good idea.

And that thread is now locked. So please continue Silver Star Diner related discussion here. No need for yet another thread.

Are you the one who locked it? Is there a place that defines when there is a need to start a new thread? If you want to discuss a particular issue it seems a shame it has to get thrown in with many other pages.

On to the topic that he asked....

Nope. I don't get to do such things. I just get to observe, suggest, report and speculate on the obvious consequences.

Ha! Fair enough! good observations sir! *tips hat*

 

[pennyk]

Moderator Note: the title of the thread was edited to include "no diner." We try to avoid multiple threads on the same topic.

 

[benale]

From New York to Petersburg both The Star and The Meteor make the same stops. After Petersburg the trains serve different towns until Savannah. After Jacksonville until West Palm Beach both trains serve different towns. I would imagine Amtrak's way of thinking vs that both trains go from New York to Miami,so eliminating a diner one one of the trains would make sense. If both trains served the same stops on the entire route, I would agree. For example, if you are going to Charleston SC or a Florida location not served on The Meteor, and you want a full service diner you are out of luck.

A diner is one of the pleasures of long distance train travel. Without it,roomette fares(for example)should be no more than $150 for the full route and

priced accordingly for shorter lengths.

 

[jis]

Actually the SS and SM routes diverge after Kissimmee, not after Jacksonville. and they rejoin at Winter Haven, after SS's detour through Tampa, not West Palm Beach. So they share the same route from Jacksonville to Kissimmee and from Winter Haven to Miami.

I have no idea where or how you come up with the arbitrary $150 number though.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The part I don't understand is how forcing everyone to participate in old meandering threads that eventually grow to humongous sizes helps new forum members and guests. The idea that everyone is expected to read ten or twenty or fifty pages of random speculation and commentary just to find a tiny bit of relevant information they actually want seems silly to me. Did anyone ever think through this "one thread to rule them all" mandate? Is it really so bad that we might have two or three threads discussing similar topics at once? No other forum I've participated in has been this black and white about closing anything that might possibly have the potential to perhaps be confused with a similar thread from five or six months ago.

 

[benale]

Correct, Jis. Guess I haven't looked at the timetables in quite awhile, They do share more stops than I thought. The stop after Petersburg, Rocky Mount is where the routes differ. I forgot they shared the same route through Kissimmee. Actually low bucket in a roomette is $179 the entire length. From DC to Jacksonville it drops to $152. Thought it would be a little lower than that.

 

[niemi24s]

Heading Southward, the routes of the Star and Meteor actually diverge at Selma NC and join up about ½ mile from the station in Savannah. This site... http://asm.transitdocs.com/ ...make it a lot easier to see stuff like that.