The Lincoln service "High Speed Zone" between Dwight and Ponti

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railpost

Service Attendant
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Aug 4, 2012
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Wednesday morning August 14 in Chicago I was able to luck out with Amtrak's lowest price between Chicago and Springfield Illinois where I was able to get the $21.00 price in both directions which I couldn't get late last night. As the Illinois State Fair is in Springfield this week I had a good reason to go there. I also had an extra added reason for going and that was to sample to 110 MPH speeds on the relatively short (18 miles) Dwight to Pontiac segment.

I left Chicago on the 9:25 am 303 and I returned on the 7:32pm (from Springfield) 306 and neither one of them went to the 110 mph limit. When I left Chicago I had asked the conductor if the train will be going 110 mph and she said "not this train" and the conductor going from Springfield to Chicago also said that the 306 would be not going 110 mph but the train going the opposite direction would be going that speed which probably meant the St Louis bound 305 or 307.

When I asked the Amtrak agent before boarding the train in Springfield I had asked him about trains that would go the 110 mph limit and he told me that only the Texas Eagle wouldn't be going that speed but the other corridor trains would. Apparently he was wrong and I was wondering if any of the trains regularly hit the 110 mph limit between Dwight and Pontiac? The State of Illinois DOT and Amtrak has been talking about the High Speed project and the segment where that speed is now permissible yet the conductors of both of trains said that neither of their trains would be going 110 miles per hour. Since the State of Illinois has Illinois High Speed rail signs all over the trains stations on the "Lincoln route" and even the Cafe Menus all say Illinois High Speed rail (now they are at every coach seat) then why aren't the trains hitting the speed limit (as limited as the permissible "high speed" distance is)?

Do any of you readers and bloggers know if any of the trains are going the "high speed" or why they are not? So far there is only about an 18 mile section where they can go 110 miles per hour.
 
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I'm dunbfounded by this as well. all this sutff about 110 mph that we've been hearing is goign nowhere. I can only wild-guess that it's becuase the extra speed was only to make up time on delays, and since these trains were not delayed, they found no reason to strain the engine to the limit and use more fuel.

I am sure George Harris or another professional can explain this much more accurately.
 
Swadian I too hope that someone on this site may know what is going on. One thing that I did notice is that a few of the trains on the corridor that had passed us up going the opposite direction had locomotives on both ends of the train (each facing the opposite direction) which suggests that they wouldn't have to turn the locomotives around or wye the trains.

The trains that I had traveled up and back on only had one locomotive on the head end in the traditional configuration.
 
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Have the schedules been tightened yet? If not, there is no need to go faster if you just end up sitting in the station if you arrive early - unless of course the train needs to make good for delays.

I guess once the schedules are tightended, the higher speed will be used regularly. Maybe for that to happen they are waiting for some more sections to be completed so the shorter timings are actually worth it.
 
I have heard that at present only one of the two tracks has been upgraded, which would mean either that they have to figure out how to dispatch trains in both directions on that one track, or trains going in only one direction will travel at a higher speed for now.

Someone with better knowledge of the situation can verify whether my assumption is correct or not.
 
Jis, very little of the route is double tracked. The upgrade should have entailed building new track alongside UP's, which the state had replaced in another upgrade attempt ten years ago. Instead UP received replacement of perfectly good track and the line is still single tracked; UP still holds up the Amtrak trains for their freights.

For three billion dollars, I don't see why Illinois couldn't have seized a strip of land alongside the tracks via eminent domain and installed its own freight-free line. Some corporation out there certainly has good political connections...
 
Juśt for your information, when the Acela began running, it was advertised to operate at (up to) 150 MPH! (Most people did not read or notice that "up to" statement.) At that time, AE ran at 150 MPH for only 18 miles between WAS and BOS - a 15 mile segment and a 3 mile segment!
 
Skim said:
Jis, very little of the route is double tracked. The upgrade should have entailed building new track alongside UP's, which the state had replaced in another upgrade attempt ten years ago. Instead UP received replacement of perfectly good track and the line is still single tracked; UP still holds up the Amtrak trains for their freights.
For three billion dollars, I don't see why Illinois couldn't have seized a strip of land alongside the tracks via eminent domain and installed its own freight-free line. Some corporation out there certainly has good political connections...
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Just to put this into perspective, does the UP line get a lot of freight? I guess if UP doesn't see the value in double tracking it, even when the state wants to foot the bill, then it can't be that busy.
 
Amtrak trains are frequently held up by UP freights. Most of the year they run behind schedule as a result. I live a mile from the tracks and hear freight horns all the time, day and night. Of course this is anecdotal, but it does put things in perspective.

UP may want it it both ways, by maintaining only a single track while hindering Amtrak's service with their own trains.
 
Something tells me that perhaps a few of the trains might go the 110 but if that's the cast it certainly doesn't mention it in the timetable and I wasn't able to get more definitive information from the train crews and the ticket agent in Springfield seemed to think that all of the trains on the Lincoln Corridor with the exception of Texas Eagle would go the 110 mph speed limit on the Pontiac to Dwight Portion. Of course that wasn't the case. There is an earlier train that leaves Chicago at 7 am and it doesn't make as many stops on the way to St Louis as the 9:25 am train that I took so perhaps that train hits the speed limit. So far this is only a guess so I will have to do some more inquiring on it.
 
Skim said:
Jis, very little of the route is double tracked. The upgrade should have entailed building new track alongside UP's, which the state had replaced in another upgrade attempt ten years ago. Instead UP received replacement of perfectly good track and the line is still single tracked; UP still holds up the Amtrak trains for their freights.
For three billion dollars, I don't see why Illinois couldn't have seized a strip of land alongside the tracks via eminent domain and installed its own freight-free line. Some corporation out there certainly has good political connections...
Click to expand...
This would have been a very awkward configuration. Double track line with one track fro freight only and the other for pax only. If the state already replaced the track, why is that one not cleared to 110 mph?

railpost said:
Swadian I too hope that someone on this site may know what is going on. One thing that I did notice is that a few of the trains on the corridor that had passed us up going the opposite direction had locomotives on both ends of the train (each facing the opposite direction) which suggests that they wouldn't have to turn the locomotives around or wye the trains. The trains that I had traveled up and back on only had one locomotive on the head end in the traditional configuration.
Click to expand...
What a waste of locomtives! The train has no need for this much power, a cab car would be much more appropriete.

This project has all gotten stuck indefinately! UP probably deserves to use the line anyway, since this is a capitalist society. After all, while highway require huge subsides, they require very little per-person compared to Amtrak. And UP makes a profit on their freight. Sad reality, gotta face it.
 
Swadian Hardcore said:
Skim said:
Jis, very little of the route is double tracked. The upgrade should have entailed building new track alongside UP's, which the state had replaced in another upgrade attempt ten years ago. Instead UP received replacement of perfectly good track and the line is still single tracked; UP still holds up the Amtrak trains for their freights.
For three billion dollars, I don't see why Illinois couldn't have seized a strip of land alongside the tracks via eminent domain and installed its own freight-free line. Some corporation out there certainly has good political connections...
Click to expand...
This would have been a very awkward configuration. Double track line with one track fro freight only and the other for pax only. If the state already replaced the track, why is that one not cleared to 110 mph?

railpost said:
Swadian I too hope that someone on this site may know what is going on. One thing that I did notice is that a few of the trains on the corridor that had passed us up going the opposite direction had locomotives on both ends of the train (each facing the opposite direction) which suggests that they wouldn't have to turn the locomotives around or wye the trains. The trains that I had traveled up and back on only had one locomotive on the head end in the traditional configuration.
Click to expand...
What a waste of locomtives! The train has no need for this much power, a cab car would be much more appropriete.

This project has all gotten stuck indefinately! UP probably deserves to use the line anyway, since this is a capitalist society. After all, while highway require huge subsides, they require very little per-person compared to Amtrak. And UP makes a profit on their freight. Sad reality, gotta face it.
Click to expand...
From what I've read, signal upgrades and gate crossings are the main holdup.

How would building Amtrak's own trackage alongside UP's be any more awkward than BNSF's parallel track further south? I'm no rail expert, but separately owned roads seem to parallel each other quite often, to the point of sharing crossing gates.
 
Skim said:
Swadian Hardcore said:
Skim said:
Jis, very little of the route is double tracked. The upgrade should have entailed building new track alongside UP's, which the state had replaced in another upgrade attempt ten years ago. Instead UP received replacement of perfectly good track and the line is still single tracked; UP still holds up the Amtrak trains for their freights.
For three billion dollars, I don't see why Illinois couldn't have seized a strip of land alongside the tracks via eminent domain and installed its own freight-free line. Some corporation out there certainly has good political connections...
Click to expand...
This would have been a very awkward configuration. Double track line with one track fro freight only and the other for pax only. If the state already replaced the track, why is that one not cleared to 110 mph?

railpost said:
Swadian I too hope that someone on this site may know what is going on. One thing that I did notice is that a few of the trains on the corridor that had passed us up going the opposite direction had locomotives on both ends of the train (each facing the opposite direction) which suggests that they wouldn't have to turn the locomotives around or wye the trains. The trains that I had traveled up and back on only had one locomotive on the head end in the traditional configuration.
Click to expand...
What a waste of locomtives! The train has no need for this much power, a cab car would be much more appropriete.

This project has all gotten stuck indefinately! UP probably deserves to use the line anyway, since this is a capitalist society. After all, while highway require huge subsides, they require very little per-person compared to Amtrak. And UP makes a profit on their freight. Sad reality, gotta face it.
Click to expand...
From what I've read, signal upgrades and gate crossings are the main holdup.

How would building Amtrak's own trackage alongside UP's be any more awkward than BNSF's parallel track further south? I'm no rail expert, but separately owned roads seem to parallel each other quite often, to the point of sharing crossing gates.
Click to expand...
Which one? Could you elaborate? I believe the main difference is that BNSF/UP parallel tracks allow trackage rights and/or directional running to some degree. Plus, they are both freight railroads.
 
There are four tracks between Granite and East St. Louis, at least one of which is UP's and another BNSF's. Amtrak uses one southbound and another northbound.

Other examples exist. The former Illinois Central line between Decatur and Bloomington ran beside the electrified Illinois Terminal Railroad until the 1950s. Today, St. Louis' light rail runs alongside UP and other freight tracks in multiple locations; at one point a freight spur merges into MetroLink's line, as it served an industrial facility from a siding when MetroLink debuted.

I don't see why a passenger line adjacent to a freight would be awkward unless there were a large number of intersections (not sure of the rail term), and even that works out between Granite and ESL.
 
As I noted in another thread, UP's timetable specifically mentions which train numbers are allowed to go above 79 mph. Only three of the four Lincoln Service round trips are allowed.
 
I traveled STL to CHI on 7-2-13. Before leaving STL the conductor announced we would be going 110 on a section of this trip. We hit 108 on my GPS. I also noticed we had an engine at each end. I don't know if it takes 2 to reach that speed or not. Had about 6 cars.

On a trip northbound on 7-15 we only got to around 98 if I remember right.

Both these trips left STL at 4:35 am. We had minimal delays, Got there early both trips.
 
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... I will agree with "almost", but I know some trains have achieved 110 mph, as I've been on them. As an example, a screen capture from a speedometer app of train 300 on 3/19/13, during a brief period of wakefulness on my part. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mistyolr/8616147020/in/set-72157633156484830

EDIT: For those that don't already know my tendencies, if my schedule agrees, I stay up from time of having to wake for work till ticket scan the next day on 300, and drug myself to sleep afterwards. After all, I usually have things to do on my layover in Chicago, even when I'm connecting to another train :3)
 
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Trogdor said:
As I noted in another thread, UP's timetable specifically mentions which train numbers are allowed to go above 79 mph. Only three of the four Lincoln Service round trips are allowed.
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Thanks Trogdor. Does the UP timetable specify which trains are "allowed" to go above 79 MPH? This information that you have sounds like it may be the most definitive so far. The last several replies are finally providing some more definitive answers as now we know that at least one or two people on this site have traveled on the Lincoln corridor at or near the 110 mph speed limit.

One of the things that bothered me is that everywhere you go on the train including on a small insignia on some of the cars and locomotives it says and emphasizes "Illinois High Speed rail" and even if that means going 110 for only 15 to 18 miles then that should be the case as all of the advertising and signage would be a waste and misleading. Over a year ago the part of the route was shut down so work could be done on it and this week it is shut down (for only a week) to do more work and so there should be something to show for it by now.
 
As I understand it, the current agreement between IDOT and UP calls for three trains in each direction to operate at 110 mph. I would think that the contract would have to be renegotiated once the entire project is completed to allow for full use of the higher speed segments. I have no idea why IDOT agreed to such a restriction in the first place, seems a little short sighted.
 
railpost said:
Trogdor said:
As I noted in another thread, UP's timetable specifically mentions which train numbers are allowed to go above 79 mph. Only three of the four Lincoln Service round trips are allowed.
Click to expand...
Thanks Trogdor. Does the UP timetable specify which trains are "allowed" to go above 79 MPH?
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I do believe that's what I just said.

It has been a while since I looked at it, so I don't remember the exact wording, but if I recall correctly, the timetable includes a line that says something to the effect of "The following speeds are only in effect for Amtrak trains 300, 301, 302, 304, 305 and 307." The wording is probably off, but the rule was explicit in its requirement. So you could take the exact same equipment set, run it on train 303, and you would be restricted to the slower speeds by order of the operating timetable.
 
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