Rail Freak
Engineer
Does any one have a rundown on what Amtrak spent a couple of years ago on the program to have chefs come up with different items to offer in the Diners? From a customer's view, I wasnt too impressed!
The new menus are here! The new menus are here!
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PaulM
Engineer
Let's hope the statisticians are smarter than that. Any time a change A is made and then B goes up or down, you really can't conclude much from that information alone.
Dovecote
OBS Chief
The SWC dining car appeared to have a fair turnout of coach passengers throughout the route. Passengers occupying the sleeping cars were close to capacity. The LSL dining car crowd for the lunch meal was sparse. The sleeping car capacity was extremely low due to a mass exodus of a foreign tour group departing in Buffalo.
I should add that I was in the second seating on the LSL and third seating on the SWC. It certainly appeared to me that Amtrak's food provision policy is to stock less in lieu of stocking more. There was a couple on the LSL that also experienced the same food shortage on their trip on the Texas Eagle from Tuscon.
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DryCreek
Lead Service Attendant
andersone
Conductor
I think two words describe Glenn's post:
Well Spken
Well Spken
T
twa904
Guest
I have just spent the last couple of hours looking at restaurant prices online. Sorry I didn't get a link but if you google "restaurant meal prices" you should find it. Most all the casual dining places across the US are listed. After looking at those prices and then looking at Amtrak's prices I think Amtrak is a little on the low side especially for breakfast or lunch. Quality of the meals may make a difference. Some on this forum say Amtrak is high priced, but like I say after looking I think they are low.
crabby_appleton1950
OBS Chief
G
Guest
Guest
Here's a few samples of dining and buffet revenues/expenses from 1950 (source Handbook of American Railroads)
Chicago Milwaukee: $1.947M / 2.995M
DRG&W : $.417M / $.630M
Erie: $.354M / $.502M
Grand Trunk: $.110 / $.191M
GN: $1.403M / $2.470M
NYC: $8.857 / $11.579
Nickel Plate: $.131M / $.252M
N&W: $.389M / $.650M
NP: $.807M / $1.102M
PRR: $8.744 / $11.375M
Santa Fe: $6.089M / $9.438M
So, at a period of time when virtually all LD trains had been equipped with modern rolling stock, when train travel was still very widely used and staff for dining cars were not paid terribly well all railroads lost money on it. All of that despite the leverage that an operation like the Santa Fe, NYC or PRR could bring based upon the scale of their food services.
Chicago Milwaukee: $1.947M / 2.995M
DRG&W : $.417M / $.630M
Erie: $.354M / $.502M
Grand Trunk: $.110 / $.191M
GN: $1.403M / $2.470M
NYC: $8.857 / $11.579
Nickel Plate: $.131M / $.252M
N&W: $.389M / $.650M
NP: $.807M / $1.102M
PRR: $8.744 / $11.375M
Santa Fe: $6.089M / $9.438M
So, at a period of time when virtually all LD trains had been equipped with modern rolling stock, when train travel was still very widely used and staff for dining cars were not paid terribly well all railroads lost money on it. All of that despite the leverage that an operation like the Santa Fe, NYC or PRR could bring based upon the scale of their food services.
Ah, a breath of fresh air - facts! Thanks for that. Barring any errors, all that adds up to:
• Revenues = $29.248M
• Expenses = $41.184M
• Losses = $41.184M - $29.248M = $11.936M or 100 X $11.936M ÷ $41.184M = 29%
• Return On Investment (?) = 100 X $29.248M ÷ $41.184M =71%
• Revenues = $29.248M
• Expenses = $41.184M
• Losses = $41.184M - $29.248M = $11.936M or 100 X $11.936M ÷ $41.184M = 29%
• Return On Investment (?) = 100 X $29.248M ÷ $41.184M =71%
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G
Glenn
Guest
Of course, there was a lot more data on other railroads that I didn't bother posting, the bottom line was that every railroad lost money on food services. I don't think those losses accounted for amortization of the equipment or maintenance, it was just an accounting of direct costs of food, wages, etc. It is interesting to note that inflation from 1950 to today is about 10x. Which means that PRR or NYC railroad were bringing in revenues of more than $80M in today's money.
Its also interesting to look at the Southern Crescent lunch menu from 1950 which listed a chicken salad on toast at $2.10, which would be $21.00 in todays money. I wonder what the Amtrak whiners would have to say about that price!!
Its also interesting to look at the Southern Crescent lunch menu from 1950 which listed a chicken salad on toast at $2.10, which would be $21.00 in todays money. I wonder what the Amtrak whiners would have to say about that price!!
George K
Conductor
A handy inflation calculator can be found here: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
And yeah, a factor of 10 (9.7 actually) is about right.
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Some things I noticed: Empire Builder had old menus but some of the new entrees. They had the spinach stuffed pasta instead of the lasagna and the Panko crusted chicken. But they still had tilapia.
Coast starlight has new menus but had pancakes instead of the French toast listed on the new menu. They put fresh strawberries on the pancakes! Coast starlight has the lunch special grilled cheddar and tomato on sourdough and a breakfast special which was egg and cheese on grilled sourdough.
Both coast starlight and empire builder have switched to the new desserts. The tiramisu is ok, but not as good as the chocolate desserts of the past. The strawberry cheesecake with the strawberries inside is still good, but not as good as the plain cheesecake topped with strawberries.
Coast starlight has new menus but had pancakes instead of the French toast listed on the new menu. They put fresh strawberries on the pancakes! Coast starlight has the lunch special grilled cheddar and tomato on sourdough and a breakfast special which was egg and cheese on grilled sourdough.
Both coast starlight and empire builder have switched to the new desserts. The tiramisu is ok, but not as good as the chocolate desserts of the past. The strawberry cheesecake with the strawberries inside is still good, but not as good as the plain cheesecake topped with strawberries.
And the minimum wage and the average workers salary has gone up by more than multiple of 10 in these 60+ years!
I'm old enough to remember the diners, cafe and buffet cars from the Golden era of Passenger trains ( as well as the terrible SP Vending Machine cars) and wasn't able to afford to eat in them on most trips!
But when I did, the quality and choices were about 10 times better than the current Amchow served from the National Menu!! (not to mention the good stuff served in cafes and coffee shops in the Big Stations.)
I'm old enough to remember the diners, cafe and buffet cars from the Golden era of Passenger trains ( as well as the terrible SP Vending Machine cars) and wasn't able to afford to eat in them on most trips!
But when I did, the quality and choices were about 10 times better than the current Amchow served from the National Menu!! (not to mention the good stuff served in cafes and coffee shops in the Big Stations.)
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I feel confident the Amtrak whiners would claim the 1950-era chicken was simply 10X better than that served today. Some folks would complain even if you tried hanging them with a new rope!
Well, I think there are three things to be said here. One is that the food then probably was better in at least some sense (better prep and presentation; it would have all been freshly cooked instead of being a little more than microwaved, as is the case with any cafe offerings now). The second is that those costs would have been aggravated by not having as much pre-packaged stuff to work with as well as eating a bit more spoilage than Amtrak is willing/able to. The third, and probably most important in many senses, is that the price of a coach ticket was such that there were a lot of trips simply not happening then which happen now (if you compare Amtrak's fares from now with c. 1970 fares, from what I can tell the coach fare from the 1970s is on par with the highest buckets on most routes now).I feel confident the Amtrak whiners would claim the 1950-era chicken was simply 10X better than that served today. Some folks would complain even if you tried hanging them with a new rope!
Edit: It's interesting seeing that the NYC and Pennsy had some of the best CR figures. It makes sense...the New York-Chicago trains did quite heavy business end-to-end, and the Pennsy additionally likely had some strongly-performing OBS numbers on some corridor trains on the NEC.
I'm going to forward this thread to my friends at NARP to see if they can work those figures into a presentation.
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crabby_appleton1950
OBS Chief
And how much has the cost of living gone up in 60 years?
More or less the same up to 2008!
Inflation really hit hard in the 70s and 80s, and now since the 2008 Meltdown (it wasn't a Recession) due to Wall Street and Big Bank greed, the average Working and Retired Americans are falling behind the curve while the Super Rich get Mega Rich!
As has been said many times here, Coach fares are actually cheap compared to the Golden Age of Passenger Rail with Diner meals about on par and Cafe junk food and drink much higher for poorer quality now! ( ie Coke/10 cents= $1.00 vs. Pepsi/$2.25 now)
Sleeping Car Rooms are actually more expensive since we no longer have the choice of Slumber Coaches and Open Sections, and there are fewer Sleepers!
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rusty spike
OBS Chief
The dining cars of the "golden age" railroads were a marketing tool--not a profit center. Four different railroads served the Chicago-St. Louis market with multiple trains and similar schedules. If you liked the Wabash diner's chicken pot pie, you might book that train just for the meal. Santa Fe competed more or less with 2 other railroads in the Chicago-LA market but only Santa Fe had "Meals by Fred Harvey". In addition to that, maybe the perks on a particular railroad's passenger trains influenced the railroad's good freight customers to route their shipments to that road--sometimes even comping them a meal in the diner. An interesting article (Santa Fe Encore) in the current edition (June 2015) of Trains magazine illustrates this point. When the writer was a little boy, he rode the Super Chief with his father and was treated to dinner in the Turquoise Room, the train's private, first-class dining room. The father was a 3-boxcar per week shipper on Santa Fe.
Amtrak has no rail competition, no freight customers to wine-&-dine. so it is as they say, "Let them eat cake"!
edited to add name of magazine.
Amtrak has no rail competition, no freight customers to wine-&-dine. so it is as they say, "Let them eat cake"!
edited to add name of magazine.
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G
Glenn
Guest
FYI, a 6oz coke cost $.15 in a railroad diner in 1960, that's equivalent to $1.20 today. A 12oz pepsi costs $2.25 on Amtrak. I don't see much difference.
True, though IIRC this was also in an era when both Pepsi and Coke were suppressing their prices...led by Coke, who was so stuck on their vending machine situation (the "just a nickel" bit) that they actually lobbied the Eisenhower administration to consider a 7.5 cent coin so they could raise prices. By 1950, the price of a Coke had been stable for about 60 years...so the soda front is probably not the best comparison. With that said, I'd love to go back and run numbers on some Santa Fe menus from the 50s and from the 60s.
http://consumerist.com/2012/11/15/how-did-a-coke-only-cost-a-nickel-for-70-years-because-coca-cola-said-so/
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Also Check out the Menu for the Kings Dinner ( aka the Kings Ransom) on ICRR's Panama Ltd. between CHI and NOL!
It cost $10, which would be $100 today, but that's what one pays in high end joints now and it was on a Train heading for New Orleans!
It cost $10, which would be $100 today, but that's what one pays in high end joints now and it was on a Train heading for New Orleans!
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neroden
Engineer
Of course. This does not include the *ticket* revenues brought in by dining car service, which were always considered to cover the costs. The dining cars were a marketing tool, a loss leader which brought in high-priced ticket revenue. And there was a lot of that ticket revenue back then, enough to make the dining cars a clear success. And they still should be such a tool....
Unfortunately, I redid the math on this for Amtrak fairly recently, and it's not at all clear that the induced ticket revenues are covering the dining car costs today. :wince: The dining cars need to be serving a lot more people to be attracting the sort of ticket revenue which will cover those costs.
Back in the 1980s, the estimate was that slashing dining car service cost 13.6% of ridership. You can look at 13.6% of revenue on each route yourself, which may be an overestimate; looks like a lot, doesn't it? $5.4 million as a high estimate, on the Meteor in 2012 (its high point); $4.46 million on the LSL....
Unfortunately, the cost of operating the dining car is enormous. If you include the foregone revenue from the unsaleable roomettes, it came out around $2.95 - $3.9 million on the LSL, or $3.8 - $4.8 million on each of the trains to the South. *Assuming that the food costs nothing.* (And every time roomette prices go up, this effective cost goes up. Each lost roomette is currently eating about $80K in revenue per year, but that could increase.)
In 1950, the cost of dining car operations was quite clearly covered by the improved ticket sales as a result of the dining cars. In 2015, even with a generous allocation of ticket sales to the dining car operations, it's unclear whether it breaks even, and I think it probably doesn't.
What is clear is that the food itself is the least of the costs; the cost is in labor, car hauling and maintenance, and revenue foregone by housing the staff. Cutting the food quality is utterly senseless, as the food quality is the main thing which is useful for marketing purposes.
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I am currently on the coast starlight in coach and found this menu on the seat. I am not sure if this is part of new menu change or something has been going on for a while. Last time I was on CS, this was not offered. What interesting is, this one is only for coach who like to have meal at their seat.
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