TSA on Amtrak

[Ryan]

Here is the guy's story - a great read, and more people should do what he did.

http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

 

[Railroad Bill]

I actually do not believe most Americans will go to the lengths that this gentleman went to in order to prove a point. This is one individual incident in which the police were not interested that day in getting involved. I personally do not want to waste two hours of my time playing these stupid games with TSA et al. In some cities they might have slapped the cuffs on you, taken you to the police station and then your attorney and you could hash it out there.

This blog is useful in that it should be sent to everyone's Congressional representitive with a letter stating whether they approved of US citizens being harassed in this manner when they leave an airport. :angry:

I have called my US Senator and explained what is going on. His office stated they would look into this and agreed that this policy needs to be reviewed. Now if all of the thousands of members and guests of this group would do the same thing, there at least might be some interest in looking at this.

Just my two and a half cents

 

[Tumbleweed]

Here is the guy's story - a great read, and more people should do what he did.

http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

Perfect example of when the use of a sniffer dog would have defused the whole situation in seconds.....

 

[Acela150]

IMO your post make little to no sense at all. How do you check someone AFTER they traveled?? :huh: They don't do that at airports. So why would they do that at SAV??? :help:

Wait, did you just say that they don't check people after traveling in airports? I take it you've never left the country then?

Leaving a country is a totally different situation though. When you travel domestically no agent asks you the reason your traveling from Newark to I don't know lets just say Houston, and when you arrive in Houston your able to walk out of the airport, and rent a car, catch a bus, ect. When you fly, sail, drive, take a train, or walk into another country you are asked about the reason of your visit, which makes sense since odds are you aren't traveling internationally with no purpose. When you fly, sail, drive, take a train or walk back into the United States US customs officials ask you what you were doing in the foreign country. The TSA is the transportation security administration. There role would involve screening before you board transportation in the United States, they shouldn't be patting you down, as you leave the airport, or train station.

That was my point. Thanks LTR. Yes I have never been as far as canada! :lol: I've been to the Canadian Rockies and that's it! I rode the Cascades. Sadly it was Superliner equipment to VAC.

 

[Ryan]

In some cities they might have slapped the cuffs on you, taken you to the police station and then your attorney and you could hash it out there.

I disagree, the police are usually very well trained - detaining someone without cause is a sure way to lose a lawsuit so they tread very lightly.
However, I do agree that most Americans are either too dumb to understand their rights or too lazy to exercise them.

 

[the_traveler]

It would not even be possible at all the unstaffed stations, or even at KIN where I can walk right from the car to the tracks without going into the station!

Dave, it would absolutely be possible at KIN. They'll just put up barricades to funnel everyone through the checkpoint. It may slow things down tremendously -- ok, it definitely will slow things down tremendously. The station won't be staffed by Amtrak personnel; it will be open only for TSA use. TSA will hire thousands more employees as a result. (I mean, not just for KIN -- for every small station )

OK, I'll accept your point about KIN, but how about the unmanned "stations" of Elko, NV (times of 9:31 PM and 3:03 AM) daily, Benson, AZ (times of 9:11 PM and 2:55 AM) 3 times a week or Needles, CA (times of 12:23 AM and 12:49 AM) daily. I'd hate to be the TSA agents assigned to those stops - there is not even a building there!

 

[jis]

IMO your post make little to no sense at all. How do you check someone AFTER they traveled?? :huh: They don't do that at airports. So why would they do that at SAV??? :help:

Wait, did you just say that they don't check people after traveling in airports? I take it you've never left the country then?

Leaving a country is a totally different situation though. When you travel domestically no agent asks you the reason your traveling from Newark to I don't know lets just say Houston, and when you arrive in Houston your able to walk out of the airport, and rent a car, catch a bus, ect. When you fly, sail, drive, take a train, or walk into another country you are asked about the reason of your visit, which makes sense since odds are you aren't traveling internationally with no purpose. When you fly, sail, drive, take a train or walk back into the United States US customs officials ask you what you were doing in the foreign country. The TSA is the transportation security administration. There role would involve screening before you board transportation in the United States, they shouldn't be patting you down, as you leave the airport, or train station.

Several points:

1. At the Customs check point at the point of entry into the US (at airports) a very small proportion of the incoming passengers are actually subjected to a baggage check.

2. US does not have any departure immigration checks, so no one asks you why you are going somewhere. The airline just makes sure that you have the appropriate travel documents so as to not face a fine from the destination country for bringing in someone who is not authorized to travel there. but they never ask why you are going somewhere. Well, while boarding a flight to Israel the secondary security barrier might ask you, but that is a special case.

3. When re-entering the US the immigration officer may ask you what you were doing while away from US, but in my experience, when I used to actually get processed by an officer they seldom asked me that at the airport entry points. They seem to ask that much more regularly at the land entry points. At the airport entry points equipped with GOES, if you are on the trusted traveler program, no one asks you anything. You just present yourself to the machine with your fingerprints and fill in the usual questions as in the normal customs form (well implicitly only those questions are asked I suppose, but no questions about where you were and what you were doing there - they already know where you are flying in from from the APIS record that they receive from the airline, and ask you to verify the information), and off you go with the entry authorization slip that the machine spits out. You present that slip, which just has a reference number, to the agent at the customs gate and off you go.

So in most cases you get the TSA treatment only at the TSA entry barrier in the US, and nowhere else in the US, irrespective of whether you are traveling domestically or internationally by air.

Crossing into US by rail is a different matter. I surmise that CBP has a special mean and nasty unit that is specifically assigned to checking trains.

 

[Rafi]

Trains.com reported the following today:

TRAINS exclusive: Amtrak police chief bars Transportation Security Administration from some security operationsBy Don Phillips

Published: March 3, 2011

WASHINGTON — In late February, the Transportation Security Administration took over the Amtrak station in Savannah, Ga., and thoroughly searched every person who entered. None of the passengers got into trouble, but the TSA certainly did — big time.

Amtrak Police Chief John O’Connor said he first thought a blog posting about the incident was a joke. When he discovered that the TSA’s VIPR team did at least some of what the blog said, he was livid. He ordered the VIPR teams off Amtrak property, at least until a firm agreement can be drawn up to prevent the TSA from taking actions that the chief said were illegal and clearly contrary to Amtrak policy.

“When I saw it, I didn’t believe it was real,” O’Connor said. When it developed that the posting on an anti-TSA blog was not a joke, “I hit the ceiling.”

Video of the screening is available at: www.liveleak.com.

O’Connor said the TSA VIPR teams have no right to do more than what Amtrak police do occasionally, which has produced few if any protests and which O’Connor said is clearly within the law and the Constitution. More than a thousand times, Amtrak teams (sometimes including VIPR) have performed security screenings at Amtrak stations. These screenings are only occasional and random, and inspect the bags of only about one in 10 passengers. There is no wanding of passengers and no sterile area. O’Connor said the TSA violated every one of these rules.

A posting in late February to the Transportation Security Administration’s blog, which serves as a public relations tool of the TSA, tried to explain why TSA agents took over the Amtrak station in Savannah. But O’Connor said the “facts” as posted on the TSA blog were incorrect. He said the blog indicated that Amtrak had approved of the operation, but it had not. He called the TSA’s posting on blog.tsa.gov “inaccurate and insensitive.” As of the time this story was filed, the same posting remained on the blog.

A TSA spokesman said he could not elaborate on the blog posting.

O’Connor said he must take some of the blame because he did not more carefully observe what the VIPR teams were doing. He said the TSA had apologized repeatedly to him, but they must agree to firm restrictions before he will consider allowing them back on Amtrak property.

The search was first revealed on the blog gizmodo.com.

However, that blog got it at least half wrong. The TSA did not, as the blog said, funnel people who arrived by train into the station for a search. Instead, the TSA took over the station and posted notes outside saying that anyone who entered would be “subject to mandatory screening.” Those who know the Savannah station realize that it generally is not necessary for anyone arriving or departing by train to go into the station. It is much easier to park the car or be dropped off near the platform.

Therefore, why was the TSA searching only anyone entering the station? It might even be easier to explain why they might have searched everyone. For instance, such questions as, did they have a tip someone was carrying a small atomic bomb? In the end, it is not even possible to discern a reason for what they actually did. Why search only people unfortunate enough to need to enter the station – people who needed to buy tickets, an elderly person who was dropped off and needed a place to sit while waiting, a mom whose infant badly needed a diaper change?

The group involved is TSA’s VIPR operation, which deals with surface transportation. VIPR is short for “visible intermodal protection and response.” It turns out that VIPR has been far more active than imagined. Teams have searched bus passengers all over the country, have done similar things at train stations, and have even blocked traffic on bridges to search trucks and cars. That even included the busy Chesapeake Bay Bridge near Washington.

The VIPR teams were rolled out on Dec. 12, 2005, then promptly pulled back two days later when it turned out that no one had informed numerous local governments. It was a fiasco. Several local jurisdictions said they had no interest and opted out, including the Washington Metro system. But teams, moving slowly, have apparently re-infiltrated surface transportation facilities. Unlike the TSA at airports, these teams have access to firepower. Although the TSA is not allowed to carry weapons, some armed Federal Air Marshals have been switched to ground duty.

One major unanswered question is: why? What purpose is being served other than to justify employment? You will certainly hear more about this in Trains.

 

[Gratt]

The American people can stop this trend of being humiliated and subjugated by the TSA thugs by just boycotting the airlines.

I wish that were even possible. Business travel requires airline use. Many businesses would die without it. For many people visiting family hundreds or thousands of miles away requires airline use. Spending most of their few vacation days on the road (or on the rails) simply isn't an option. As a result, people have to fly. It's an unfortunate reality.

No but businesses can cut down on it by a large degree, behold the power of teleconferences :giggle:

airlines make their bread and butter from regular, frequent, business travelers. If they reduced their numbers (as many have) it will do serious damage to the industry.

 

[Ryan]

Trains.com reported the following today:

TRAINS exclusive: Amtrak police chief bars Transportation Security Administration from some security operationsBy Don Phillips

Published: March 3, 2011

WASHINGTON — In late February, the Transportation Security Administration took over the Amtrak station in Savannah, Ga., and thoroughly searched every person who entered. None of the passengers got into trouble, but the TSA certainly did — big time.

Amtrak Police Chief John O’Connor said he first thought a blog posting about the incident was a joke. When he discovered that the TSA’s VIPR team did at least some of what the blog said, he was livid. He ordered the VIPR teams off Amtrak property, at least until a firm agreement can be drawn up to prevent the TSA from taking actions that the chief said were illegal and clearly contrary to Amtrak policy.

[snipped for brevity]

 

[jis]

The relevant question to ask I think is: "Is the TSA capable of doing anything at all without having it transform itself into a major fiasco?". Each time they try to do anything they seem to create a new high bar for everyone who is trying to establish their own incompetence. This perhaps is the result of their sense of invincibility that is conveyed to them by us the people cowering in our own somewhat realistic but to quite an extent irrational fear of the unknown, unfortunately.

Considering how many visible mistakes they make, and knowing that only a small percentage of the total mistakes made actually become visible in a large organizational setup, and even more so for one that hides behind a veil of secrecy, the thought of what they will do when they have to deal with a real critical situation is very disturbing and sobering indeed.

By the way Amtrak's O'Connor is a very able officer. I have a lot of respect for him.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Chief John O'Connor meet the officer in Chicago at the town hall meeting. Mixed feeling about him. He seem an great chief, an straight shooter. However after give an talk about the rules and taking photos, of trains. He was ask about shooting shots of the station and grounds. He stated to have your ID ready. Glad someone is working this issue that has some weight.

 

[Edgefan]

The American people can stop this trend of being humiliated and subjugated by the TSA thugs by just boycotting the aitlines.

I wish that were even possible. Business travel requires airline use. Many businesses would die without it. For many people visiting family hundreds or thousands of miles away requires airline use. Spending most of their few vacation days on the road (or on the rails) simply isn't an option. As a result, people have to fly. It's an unfortunate reality.

For reasons too long to go into here, I made a decision when I stepped off an aircraft in the fall of 1997 to never get back on one again. I have held to that. I have worked out logistics of cross country travel without being funneled in a pressurized aluminum tube. Fortunately geography allows me to be anywhere in this great country inside of 48 hours. Given that, if I can find a low bucket meandering route, that's the one for me! I've found myself even closer to my country by keeping wheels, steel or otherwise, on the ground. My boss knows and understands my position (fortunately) and would never put me in a position that would force me to fly. As far as family and friends, all are within 30 minutes of an Amtrak station. Closer than I am! :lol:

 

[TraneMan]

Looks like TSA blew someone's fuse!

Newswire.

 

[Anderson]

Look, the heart of the problem is that while in theory you could, with a competent operation, more or less secure airline travel by simply securing airports, with rail travel you have tens of thousands of miles of physical track that have to be covered to keep things secure. Any terrorist with half a brain could probably dislodge a pair of railroad ties over a river or, if suicide is a part of the deal, pull a pickup truck in front of a train at a grade crossing (there are how many of these across the country?) and do as much as anybody getting onboard could hope to do, if not more. In short, the TSA guys really can't do anything effective even if we give them a Ring of Competence +2.

 

[alanh]

Complaining to the airlines is not going to do a thing. You have to complain to your congresspersons, and if they won't cooperate, don't vote for them. That's the only thing that's going to get the TSA under control.

As for post-flight screening, the issue is that you have access to your checked luggage at Customs, so you can get out your quart of brandy, lighter, and set of butcher knives and put them in your carryon bag. Because of this, you have to be rescreened before boarding another flight.

At some airports (like Atlanta), it's impossible to exit the airport without going back through the secured area.

The options are rescreen everybody and force ATL destined passengers to recheck their bags (what they do now); or apply carryon restrictions to all luggage; or construct a separate exit just for international arrivals destined for Atlanta. The last one is actually taking place; the new international terminal will have its own exit.

 

[Anderson]

One thing that I think is being missed, to be fair, is the silence of the airlines in all of this. For all that they need to show a commitment to security (and a responsible commitment is a good thing, don't get me wrong), there have been enough screwups, enough reports and anecdotes released showing that the TSA is ineffective, and enough damage to their business that one would expect one or more of them, facing bankruptcy proceedings, to let loose on the TSA. I seem to recall a study showing that each round of TSA measures costs the airlines a not-insubstantial amount of business, likely focused in many "discretionary" markets (the NEC leaps to mind, but so do tourist trips that can be skipped).

It is true that they can't refuse to cooperate, but a very public lashing of the TSA (I'm thinking quiet suggestions of possible Citizens United-enabled ads might do the trick), with proper PR management, could force Congress's hand on this. Of course, for that matter so could the airlines being a bit more aggressive with testimony and press releases in general (I'm thinking the TSA announcing a new measure, the measure going over poorly, and the airlines savaging the measure), getting together and coming up with counter-proposals that are less intrusive, etc.

I also do understand that the main pressure point has to be Congress (and whenever a DHS confirmation comes up again, it's a point to raise...and there are also some actions states could probably take to make things more difficult on them), but I view the airlines as at least somewhat willing accomplices in this. They haven't said boo, and there's plenty of room for focused criticism that even lets the bigwigs off easy and savages "inept underlings" and narrow, specific unpopular procedures that they should be able to raise with some vigor with Congressmen. I would say the same of the airports, who also have a stake in this, and who any hit to passenger traffic zaps in the pocketbook as well (via lost parking revenue and ripple effects on vendors). There are a lot of people being hurt by this who are remaining conspicuously silent: Airlines, airports, unions (I'll grant that the pilots' union stood up over the pilot screening, but that's not helping however many jobs they're losing to lost traffic), and municipal governments that have together invested billions of dollars in these facilities.

At least the head of the Amtrak Police has the backbone to stand up for himself and for Amtrak. That is more than can be said for anybody in the airline industry over the last few years. Score another point, at least temporarily, for Amtrak and very much against the airlines.

 

[jis]

Actually airlines have very little reason to complain at a strategic level. Prior to this it was a cost that airlines carried directly, a cost that Amtrak never had to deal with. The airlines were able to get rid of that cost and place it on the government. Why would they stir the pot that might land the cost back in their laps?

At a tactical level there is considerable discussions that go on way more regularly between the airlines and the TSA, than apparently between Amtrak and TSA. But that is not going to prevent a mismanaged outfit from doing random things. And so far no one has the courage to take on the possibility that should there be another attack after the TSA is figuratively neutered by someone, who is going to take the fall for it. It is all as simple as that.

The cause for earnings difficulties in the domestic market still is and has been first and foremost, overcapacity, though the airlines are now getting close to fixing that problem apparently. Also other than a couple of dedicated domestics, the rest are now making most of their profits (such as they are) on premium international flights. Besides on the whole, from an environmental perspective, is it such a bad thing if people who really don't need to fly stop doing so because of TSA or whatever?

Maybe someday TSA's shenanigans will rise to a point where they become a real issue. They apparently have not yet in general except for a relatively small minority of very vocal people, including me. Yes there is much noise generated after each incident, and the TSA backs off just sufficiently to calm everything down for the time being. Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

 

[Ispolkom]

Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

Is that because the important thing was for TSA to purchase them, not to use them? The vendor gets paid the same, regardless of how much the darn things are used.

 

[PRR 60]

...Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

That's because the MCO scanners are being set-up in cooperation with Disney. When you exit the scanner you will be in a gift shop with scanner-themed souvenirs and will have the option to buy a commemorative 8x10 glossy of your scan plus wallet size copies for friends and family.

 

[Ryan]

Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

Is that because the important thing was for TSA to purchase them, not to use them? The vendor gets paid the same, regardless of how much the darn things are used.

Sadly, I think that's correct (along with a side of getting to look tough "see, we have all these scanners!" without actually pissing people off by putting folks through them).

 

[GlobalistPotato]

Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

Is that because the important thing was for TSA to purchase them, not to use them? The vendor gets paid the same, regardless of how much the darn things are used.

Sadly, I think that's correct (along with a side of getting to look tough "see, we have all these scanners!" without actually pissing people off by putting folks through them).

Ah, I see! Both sides can be happy!

 

[jis]

...Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

That's because the MCO scanners are being set-up in cooperation with Disney. When you exit the scanner you will be in a gift shop with scanner-themed souvenirs and will have the option to buy a commemorative 8x10 glossy of your scan plus wallet size copies for friends and family.

Now now! I thought Disney was a family oriented outfit

 

[tp49]

...Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

That's because the MCO scanners are being set-up in cooperation with Disney. When you exit the scanner you will be in a gift shop with scanner-themed souvenirs and will have the option to buy a commemorative 8x10 glossy of your scan plus wallet size copies for friends and family.

Pictures of the pat down would be so much more in demand

 

[TVRM610]

...Notice that most of the full body scanners now stand mostly idle at most airports? Just yesterday I passed by a row of them in Orlando, and none of them were in use.

That's because the MCO scanners are being set-up in cooperation with Disney. When you exit the scanner you will be in a gift shop with scanner-themed souvenirs and will have the option to buy a commemorative 8x10 glossy of your scan plus wallet size copies for friends and family.

Pictures of the pat down would be so much more in demand

I can see the future...

"And here is Timmy meeting Mickey Mouse, here he is riding dumbo, oh and look here is his first TSA enhanced pat down!"