Nice 'fro!
Woman survives fall from moving Amtrak train
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fairviewroad
Engineer
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And there you have it, folks...proof that if you open the vestibule window, you'll be attacked by a swarm of gnats. 
June the Coach Rider
OBS Chief
When elderly are confused, it is not that they are clueless, they cannot help what they do.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
If you're that helpless then what are you doing on the train by yourself in the first place? Amtrak bans teenagers who have more sense than to climb out of the window while the train is moving. If being young is no excuse then why should being old excuse such behavior? Maybe Amtrak should consider training frontline staff to help spot potentially dangerous levels of confusion in the elderly and require them to travel with help just like they do with children. Or maybe when you hit eighty or whatever you bring a doctor's note confirming you're able to handle being left alone without killing yourself.
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VentureForth
Engineer
Ziv
Conductor
I saw this done as we were approaching Essex on the Builder. Pity my photos didn't turn out very well...
Sundowning is caused by unfamiliarity; the woman may be fine and dandy 24/7 at home, but put her in a hotel or hospital and let the games begin! Outside of hospital personnel, most people are unaware of it and would not even think such a thing could happen, much less be "oh yeah" upon hearing of it.
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F
FormerOBS
Guest
There's the U.S. Constitution.
It is presumed that children have not reached a developmental level that makes them competent to make important decisions for themselves. Once a person reaches adulthood, it is presumed that they are competent, and it would take a court order to declare them incompetent. Legally, we don't automatically "age out" of competence. If an incompetent adult manages to get aboard a train, the crew has to presume competence unless there's very compelling evidence to the contrary. As has been mentioned above, this kind of problem often becomes much worse at night. The lady's behavior might have been perfectly normal in the daytime, so the crew might have had no inkling that she would become disoriented later on.
Initial training for Amtrak onboard employees does discuss this and many other potential situations. I have attended supplemental retraining sessions where it has come up, and I've been involved in informal discussions between employees, where it has come up. But in actual practice, Amtrak's training cannot be so thorough that an OBS employee is qualified to diagnose passengers' problems and predict their behavior.
That's why I mentioned the responsibilities of family members to look after their older relatives.
It is presumed that children have not reached a developmental level that makes them competent to make important decisions for themselves. Once a person reaches adulthood, it is presumed that they are competent, and it would take a court order to declare them incompetent. Legally, we don't automatically "age out" of competence. If an incompetent adult manages to get aboard a train, the crew has to presume competence unless there's very compelling evidence to the contrary. As has been mentioned above, this kind of problem often becomes much worse at night. The lady's behavior might have been perfectly normal in the daytime, so the crew might have had no inkling that she would become disoriented later on.
Initial training for Amtrak onboard employees does discuss this and many other potential situations. I have attended supplemental retraining sessions where it has come up, and I've been involved in informal discussions between employees, where it has come up. But in actual practice, Amtrak's training cannot be so thorough that an OBS employee is qualified to diagnose passengers' problems and predict their behavior.
That's why I mentioned the responsibilities of family members to look after their older relatives.
Things like this can happen during diabetic episodes as well. My mother gets extremely disoriented if she forgets to take her insulin or doesn't eat on-schedule. We'll be in the middle of a perfectly normal conversation, and then suddenly her eyes will glass over and she'll start talking as if we're on a trip we took in 1990, or she'll ask me to put a bowl of potato chips in the freezer so they're fresh for "the party" later. It's extremely unnerving and a bit scary at times, but we know what to watch for now.
I can't imagine allowing her to travel alone, but at the same time, if I didn't know about these episodes from witnessing them firsthand, I would just assume she was fully capable and wish her a safe journey. They didn't start until a couple of years ago, and, luckily, her first experience with these episodes didn't occur on a train. She was safe at home. Had she been on a train, she very well could have done something like this.
In fact, didn't that exact thing happen about a year ago? They were searching for a gentleman for 4-7 days, if I remember correctly, and his daughter mentioned he was diabetic. My memory is fuzzy, but he was disoriented, thinking he was home, and he opened an exit door and fell off the train.
I can't imagine allowing her to travel alone, but at the same time, if I didn't know about these episodes from witnessing them firsthand, I would just assume she was fully capable and wish her a safe journey. They didn't start until a couple of years ago, and, luckily, her first experience with these episodes didn't occur on a train. She was safe at home. Had she been on a train, she very well could have done something like this.
In fact, didn't that exact thing happen about a year ago? They were searching for a gentleman for 4-7 days, if I remember correctly, and his daughter mentioned he was diabetic. My memory is fuzzy, but he was disoriented, thinking he was home, and he opened an exit door and fell off the train.
Yes, Sarah we were on that train CZ #6 in September 2012. This man was disoriented from the time we met him in SLC and later went out of the train somewhere in eastern CO. A sad affair but I believe he should never have been placed on this train by himself.Things like this can happen during diabetic episodes as well. My mother gets extremely disoriented if she forgets to take her insulin or doesn't eat on-schedule. We'll be in the middle of a perfectly normal conversation, and then suddenly her eyes will glass over and she'll start talking as if we're on a trip we took in 1990, or she'll ask me to put a bowl of potato chips in the freezer so they're fresh for "the party" later. It's extremely unnerving and a bit scary at times, but we know what to watch for now.
I can't imagine allowing her to travel alone, but at the same time, if I didn't know about these episodes from witnessing them firsthand, I would just assume she was fully capable and wish her a safe journey. They didn't start until a couple of years ago, and, luckily, her first experience with these episodes didn't occur on a train. She was safe at home. Had she been on a train, she very well could have done something like this.
In fact, didn't that exact thing happen about a year ago? They were searching for a gentleman for 4-7 days, if I remember correctly, and his daughter mentioned he was diabetic. My memory is fuzzy, but he was disoriented, thinking he was home, and he opened an exit door and fell off the train.
F
FormerOBS
Guest
HOW COME I'M A GUEST & NOT A MEMBER ANYMORE???????
You need to sign in, again.
Because you retired? :giggle:
F
FormerOBS
Guest
Tried to re-register & the system wouldn't accept it because name etc. is already in use (by me, who is or isn't a member). Tried to contact admin. with no luck.
Is it not accepting your password?
Golden grrl
Service Attendant
This does not look like Amtrak's fault, but you can bet there will be a lawsuit........sigh......
Returning to the topic at hand It does seem that the female passenger who fell from the train was either disoriented or confused about her whereabouts since most people would not open the window on a moving train and somehow go out the door/window. It also seems as though the communications between Amtrak, the niece and the sheriff's department has lead to some problems here too.
I found some of the comments made in the article to be "offensive" since Amtrak trains are generally not dirty bastions of filth as referred by some posters. Amtrak should not be responsible for the whereabouts of every passenger on the train, but it would behove the SCA's to occasionally check in on older passengers just to see everything is o.k.
Hopefully, the lady will recover from her injuries but I would suspect that Amtrak will be paying a large share of that cost
It does seem that the female passenger who fell from the train was either disoriented or confused about her whereabouts since most people would not open the window on a moving train and somehow go out the door/window. It also seems as though the communications between Amtrak, the niece and the sheriff's department has lead to some problems here too.I found some of the comments made in the article to be "offensive"
since Amtrak trains are generally not dirty bastions of filth as referred by some posters. Amtrak should not be responsible for the whereabouts of every passenger on the train, but it would behove the SCA's to occasionally check in on older passengers just to see everything is o.k.Hopefully, the lady will recover from her injuries but I would suspect that Amtrak will be paying a large share of that cost
According to the article, her name is Rosie Madison. I suppose she should be referred to by that name now........
Amtrak has the 'deep pockets' and I'll bet there will be a lawsuit here, even if it looks like it will be a spurious one.
neroden
Engineer
Amtrak has no legal responsibility for someone who ignored a giant sign saying STOP: DO NOT OPEN WINDOW
I'm impressed at their ability to name the same injury three different ways.
Potentially I could see an issue with the delay in notifying police of it (especially given the open window).
VentureForth
Engineer
You say that, but they will dish out cash for some reason or another. No matter how much they are not liable, someone will hold them liable for something.
caravanman
Engineer
The thing to remember is that us old folk can be quite fine one minute, then have a bleed or stoppage of blood to the brain and become quite a different person, confused or whatever. I think the last news item is just the granddaughter being given wrong info, just the same as the news media.
I have to ask whether Texan Eagle bought that top in India?
Ed
I have to ask whether Texan Eagle bought that top in India?
Ed
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Texan Eagle
Conductor
- Joined
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Everything seen in that picture has been bought in America... and Made in China*
*except the Superliner car.
FormerOBS
Conductor
I think the governor gave me an 11th hour reprieve. I'd like to thank everybody for helping to free me from the dungeon where I was confined.
The last "news" item is kind of interesting, but not very enlightening. In my opinion, it illustrates either yellow journalism or lazy journalism, since it creates more confusion than enlightenment. As Paulus suggests, the broken leg, hip, and femur seem to be three different words to describe one injury. If she left the train via the last car, it would be interesting to know where her actual assigned room was located. I think this is the first article I've seen that indicates she might have moved from one car to another. A lawyer will probably jump all over the open window issue; but in actual fact, I've closed those windows scores of times --- possibly hundreds of times --- because somebody with too much curiosity failed to secure the latch. Should the train stop for an investigation every time this happens? Amtrak can't lock those doors because it could be necessary for passengers to leave by that door in an emergency. Imagine a truly catastrophic wreck in which the attendant or conductor is trapped or dead. It's an unlikely scenario, and we don't want to think about it, just as airline people don't WANT to think about plane crashes; but it's a possibility, and that's why passengers are not sealed into a locked train.
It was suggested that the SCA should frequently check on passengers who might be elderly or confused. It sounds like a good idea, but passengers normally lock their doors at night and can't be seen by whoever is patrolling the train,
The last "news" item is kind of interesting, but not very enlightening. In my opinion, it illustrates either yellow journalism or lazy journalism, since it creates more confusion than enlightenment. As Paulus suggests, the broken leg, hip, and femur seem to be three different words to describe one injury. If she left the train via the last car, it would be interesting to know where her actual assigned room was located. I think this is the first article I've seen that indicates she might have moved from one car to another. A lawyer will probably jump all over the open window issue; but in actual fact, I've closed those windows scores of times --- possibly hundreds of times --- because somebody with too much curiosity failed to secure the latch. Should the train stop for an investigation every time this happens? Amtrak can't lock those doors because it could be necessary for passengers to leave by that door in an emergency. Imagine a truly catastrophic wreck in which the attendant or conductor is trapped or dead. It's an unlikely scenario, and we don't want to think about it, just as airline people don't WANT to think about plane crashes; but it's a possibility, and that's why passengers are not sealed into a locked train.
It was suggested that the SCA should frequently check on passengers who might be elderly or confused. It sounds like a good idea, but passengers normally lock their doors at night and can't be seen by whoever is patrolling the train,
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