Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[cirdan]

I share the concerns of some of the previous posters.

This project started with such a bang and an extremely ambitious schedule.

And now we're just looking on as month after month slips by with nothing happening.

As far as I know, no major construction work has begun. No trains have been ordered.

Even the major train terminals, which are supposed to be the money-spinning core of the project are so far just sketchy doodles on the maps.

What's going on?

 

[Anderson]

I share the concerns of some of the previous posters.

This project started with such a bang and an extremely ambitious schedule.

And now we're just looking on as month after month slips by with nothing happening.

As far as I know, no major construction work has begun. No trains have been ordered.

Even the major train terminals, which are supposed to be the money-spinning core of the project are so far just sketchy doodles on the maps.

What's going on?

Basically, my understanding is that the RRIF loan agreements need to get straightened out. With that said, I suspect that the initial start of service date was overblown to try and generate excitement.

 

[jis]

Looks like FRA wants full 4 quadrant gates at most crossings north of West Palm beach and is sort of siding with the counties on this matter. This could get ugly since I doubt that the EIS will be approved without a resolution of this issue.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/federal-rail-official-blasts-all-aboard-floridas-s/nfS39/

And this does not even include Indian River and Brevard county crossings where trains will be operating at 110 mph.

Meanwhile, opposition in Brevard county is starting to heat up. Just heard of a big meeting of Realtors in Cocoa with opposition to the AAF proposal on its agenda, unless the realtors have something to gain from it through provision of station(s) in Brevard county, just as I had surmised would happen earlier in this thread. I am providing them info to try to get those few that want to outright oppose to a position where support is conditional upon provision of service, which has been my position all along. I know some here probably hate me for it, but that is OK by me. It is a genuine difference of opinion, and we have to learn to live with it.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Looks like FRA wants full 4 quadrant gates at most crossings north of West Palm beach and is sort of siding with the counties on this matter. This could get ugly since I doubt that the EIS will be approved without a resolution of this issue.http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/business/federal-rail-official-blasts-all-aboard-floridas-s/nfS39/And this does not even include Indian River and Brevard county crossings where trains will be operating at 110 mph.Meanwhile, opposition in Brevard county is starting to heat up. Just heard of a big meeting of Realtors in Cocoa with opposition to the AAF proposal on its agenda, unless the realtors have something to gain from it through provision of station(s) in Brevard county, just as I had surmised would happen earlier in this thread. I am providing them info to try to get those few that want to outright oppose to a position where support is conditional upon provision of service, which has been my position all along. I know some here probably hate me for it, but that is OK by me. It is a genuine difference of opinion, and we have to learn to live with it.

From what I understand, the "sealed corridor" design that you refer to is actually just a recommendation by the FRA. The actual responsibility for regulating safety features for trains going that fast (speeds of 90-110 mph) is left to individual states and their own DOTs. Here in FL, there are no regulations yet for higher speed trains and FDOT could go either way with this issue. Therefore, AAF will follow the direction laid out by FDOT.

The EIS report will cover safety, but since the "sealed corridor" features (such as raised medians, full quant gates, etc..) are not necessary per FRA/USDOT regulations, whether or not AAF decides to implement the "sealed corridor" will not effect the EIS report nor the RRIF application.

As far as the opposition, the opponents of AAF have really been spreading lies and misinformation the past few months. Unfortunately for them, there really is not much that can stop AAF. Their main complaint is that adding 32 more trains will "destroy" their "peaceful and tranquil" communities. As a history guide, look up the frequency of FECR freight trains over the past 20 years. Might be surprised to learn that FECR ran 2-3 times the number of daily freight trains as they do now! And the claims that future freight traffic will rise considerably (and that AAF is just a play by FECR for added trains, tracks, etc.l.) due to the new panama canal and port expansion in south FL are laughable as well. An FECR executive recently came out and said even one more Panamax boat per day would not add a single new northbound train. That is because existing trains haul so many empty containers back north. FECR appears to have plenty of capacity to fill existing northbound trains with new traffic.

For Brevard county, a station stop is going to be a tough sell as the lease agreement that AAF and OOCEA signed last year placed conditions on any additional stops in areas that serve to feed their toll road (Beachline expressway). I believe Brevard county was included (or at least the Cocoa area). Perhaps a stop could be made for southbound traffic only?

 

[jis]

Having sat through EIS processes I would not be as sure as you seem to be about how these things go. But of course only time will tell.

That OOCEA agreement is unconscionable and should be challenged and rescinded, and the only way that it can be done is politically, and that unfortunately may dredge in other random issues. All that the agreement says is that OOCEA must be consulted and permission gotten from them before a stop is added. So it is not like it is ruled out. With an appropriate amount of political pressure brought to bear that can be fixed, or so I am told. A public agency is not supposed to create barriers to general public good just to serve its own interests. Of course not that that would stop self perpetuating public bureaucracies trying to do so at each step. It is important to thwart such IMHO.

Yes there is a lot of nonsense flying around. But there also are legitimate issues that should be addressed. Just IMHO of course. I am just trying to strike the right balance between pointless extreme positions as I see it.

But again, considering that no shovel has yet gone into the ground for anything, and not a stitch of brush has been cleared or rail or ties delivered to any track-side site for even the double tracking work yet, and we are now getting to mid-2014 by when service was supposed to have already started, and even the revised schedule places it just over a year away, who knows what is actually going on?

In contrast, on the NEC HSR project in NJ which is scheduled for completion in 2017, there is a significant amount of visible construction activity already.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Having sat through EIS processes I would not be as sure as you seem to be about how these things go. But of course only time will tell.That OOCEA agreement is unconscionable and should be challenged and rescinded, and the only way that it can be done is politically, and that unfortunately may dredge in other random issues. All that the agreement says is that OOCEA must be consulted and permission gotten from them before a stop is added. So it is not like it is ruled out. With an appropriate amount of political pressure brought to bear that can be fixed, or so I am told. A public agency is not supposed to create barriers to general public good just to serve its own interests. Of course not that that would stop self perpetuating public bureaucracies trying to do so at each step. It is important to thwart such IMHO.Yes there is a lot of nonsense flying around. But there also are legitimate issues that should be addressed. Just IMHO of course. I am just trying to strike the right balance between pointless extreme positions as I see it.But again, considering that no shovel has yet gone into the ground for anything, and not a stitch of brush has been cleared or rail or ties delivered to any track-side site for even the double tracking work yet, and we are now getting to mid-2014 by when service was supposed to have already started, and even the revised schedule places it just over a year away, who knows what is actually going on?In contrast, on the NEC HSR project in NJ which is scheduled for completion in 2017, there is a significant amount of visible construction activity already.

The EIS and RRIF statement was based on information I was told by some people involved in the project. If the FRA doesnt mandate the sealed corridor, how can they demand that AAF install it? I dont have a history of cases previously where that was what happened. I would appreciate any info anyone may have on sealed corridors and 90-110mph operation in regards to the EIS.

Alot of the sealed corridor items would also help implement quiet zones. That has been a big issue with the Treasure Coast people as far as maintaining the crossings at government expense. IMO I think there are opponents who will never be happy and just want to see AAF stopped completely.

The OOCEA agreement also says AAF will pay for a traffic diversion study and also renegotiate the lease agreement to include extra payments for the lost revenue! Of course it will be political. From what I know, the agreement between AAF, OOCEA, Deseret Ranches and FDOT was very political as well as complex. I am sure there was alot of horse trading going on. I am actually surprised it happened.

Yes there is definitely alot of horse manure being spread! There are of course some valid concerns, but when you get people complaining of parking spaces lost (that the city of Stuart leases land for from FECR), wildlife getting killed in a state park that was created 50+ years after the railway was built, how drawbridges will be down 45 minutes of every hour... And so on and so forth. That is what drives me crazy about these NIMBYs on the east coast. Most of them do not want to work with AAF or compromise in anyway.

Personally, I think FECI/AAF really underestimated the time to go through the EIS and RRIF loan processes. And add in the 18 months of negotiations with the GOAA for the Orlando terminal. AAF will run only when the south terminal station at OIA is ready to open. That is the Achilles heel of the project. AAF has little control over the construction schedule that project. My guess is that AAF is waiting for some sign that the RRIF loans will be approved. For the NEC project you mention, when did they start their EIS process and start looking for funding?

 

[jis]

Brian, I do agree with your assessment overall. So don't get me wrong based on my previous comments. I just look for a more rational understanding of the reality of the situation including a reasonable assessment of the political realities. A very respected senior rail advocate that I work with from time to time always reminds me that there is very little that is technical standing in the way of anything. The hardest problems are political, always. And consequently a level headed, unemotional assessment of those is essential to help move things in the right direction.

As for the NEC project, it does not need an EIS since it is all well within the existing ROW (about as completely shovel ready as it can be!). They were funded out of HSIPR money returned by Wisconsin and/or Florida. Even they were surprised when they received the funding and had to scramble to get the project together and off the ground. I know both the executive in charge and the chief engineer personally, and it is very interesting to hear from them the story of what happened when they learned that they had got the funding.

At present they are busy putting in foundations for hundreds of new electrification posts. One of the four tracks is being taken out of service in segments and the track is being rebuilt ground up this year. Same will be done on the other three tracks, one track each year. Haven't quite figured out what is the plan for replacing the catenary with constant tension ones, but clearly that happens after the basic support infrastructure (post, feeders etc.) is in place.

As for EISs, one EIS that has descended into a complete circus that I am aware of, is the one for Lackawanna Cutoff. Now that rare turtles or whatever has been taken care of, I guess all are waiting with baited breath to see if some rare mushroom rears its head. OTOH, there are other EISs that sail through relatively easily. As for whether anything actually can be built sometimes becomes an issue like in case of the Empire Corridor EIS, when the owner of the property involved baulks - CSX in this case. Of course that is not a problem with FEC, but could be with Florida State or other bodies, some of which has been handled already by AAF at least for the moment.

Usually the problem in getting EISs approved is not the FRA itself but everyone else that becomes a stakeholder by virtue of being impacted by the project. FRA usually acts as an extremely political animal in how it goes about deciding on a ROD, and thus becomes more or less completely unpredictable.

 

[neroden]

In contrast, on the NEC HSR project in NJ which is scheduled for completion in 2017, there is a significant amount of visible construction activity already.

And there's a huge amount going on in Michigan. And visible construction between Albany and Schenectady. And so on.

 

[CHamilton]

All Aboard Florida to create thousands of jobs, study says

Construction of a passenger rail line that would connect Miami to Orlando is expected to create more than 10,000 jobs in Florida, according to a study by The Washington Economics Group.
The All Aboard Florida project would generate $2.4 billion labor income and over $600 million in tax revenues for federal, state and local governments, according to the study. Beyond the first two years of the project, the rail line will support an estimated average of 5,000 jobs annually through 2021. Once the construction is complete, it will support over 2,000 permanent jobs.

 

[jis]

So does this imply that construction will continue till 2021?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It would seem that way, wouldn't it?

 

[Anderson]

Interesting. I do wonder what that involves...further extensions, maybe (JAX/TPA)?

 

[Brian_tampa]

So does this imply that construction will continue till 2021?

In the economic study this quote came from, the date 2021 is meaning that the project has achieved full build out. This is not just the rail component, but also construction of all of the planned TOD under the control of AAF/FECI. The rail part is expected to fully operation sometime in 2016.
There is nothing in the report that mentions expansion to Tampa or Jacksonville.

http://www.allaboardflorida.com/files/economic-impact-full-report.pdf

 

[Anderson]

Ok, that makes some sense. That was really the only other guess I had, since the project taking until 2021 to start service would be a bit of a jump. It looks like the Miami project is huge (I didn't expect it to be nearly so big), and the others aren't insignificant, either.

 

[afigg]

All Aboard Florida is not thinking small or modest for the Miami downtown station (well, terminal to be precise). Miami Herald: Miami-Orlando train executives unveil plans for massive downtown station, shops. There are full size renderings with the article. Excerpt:

All Aboard Florida revealed plans Wednesday for the flagship station of its proposed cross-state passenger-train service, a shimmering, four-block-long labyrinth of shops, restaurant, offices and, oh yes, tracks, perched on a floating platform in downtown Miami.

The 50-foot-tall platform is part of an 11.2-acre development that stretches from just east of Government Center to the Overtown Metrorail stop. It’s topped by three towers varying in height from 15 to 28 stories, and flanked by an 80-story skyscraper.

All Aboard Florida executives and city officials believe the station complex, about 3 million square feet, will spur commercial development for miles in all directions as well as become an iconic city landmark like the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge or New York’s Grand Central Station.

 

[edjbox]

Would All Aboard Florida connect to any Amtrak stations? If so, and perhaps later Amtrak uses the FEC line for one of its LD trains, could there perhaps be some joint ticketing or codeshare agreement between Amtrak and AAF??

 

[Anderson]

Tough question. On the one hand, in an attempt to avoid STB oversight, AAF stated that they have no plans to through-ticket with Amtrak. However, it does seem likely that there would be some connectivity in Jacksonville (should that line come to pass) whether AAF wants it or not, since the two station locations are relatively close.

As to an Amtrak train using the FEC tracks, that is another tricky question. It is highly likely that Amtrak would want to run all LD trains into their new station at the airport (and not AAF's station downtown), if only for maintenance reasons. They would probably want to cross back to the present Amtrak line as far north as possible, since having one train stop at one station and another stop elsewhere would confuse people...that sort of situation hasn't been a "thing" in 40 years. AAF being at one station and Amtrak at another is one thing, but having AAF at one station, some Amtrak trains at the other...and then one odd Amtrak train at the AAF station? Cue confusion.

To be fair, in some places this would be more of an issue than others. In West Palm Beach, the FEC station appears to be planned for a site roughly 1500 feet from the present Amtrak station, so straightening out a mix-up would involve less of a walk than some airport terminals involve. In Fort Lauderdale, the distance would be more like a mile. Miami and Orlando provide the biggest messes: Miami would be around 5-6 miles, and Orlando...is roughly the same distance in terms of travel time from the Orlando and Kissimmee stations (which is to say, around 20 minutes each, depending on how they ultimately sort out the parking lots at the Orlando Airport Station...bear in mind that the airport is like 4-5 miles across, so the south entrance is closer to Kissimmee while the north entrance is closer to Orlando).

 

[edjbox]

First point: I think you're right about AAF not through-ticketing to Amtrak since it is a startup operation introducing new passenger service that has not had service recently. However, concerning other routes in the Amtrak system, if someone other than Amtrak successfully bids for an existing route (such as the Hoosier State), then they probably have to have access to the Amtrak Reservation system, through-ticketing, codeshare or whatever, based on the PRIIA.

Second point: I was going to say that Richmond has two train stations with LD trains heading south bypassing the Main St one, but a better example of two different train stations for different trains is Boston, with South Station serving the NEC and LSL routes while North Station serves only the Downeaster. Another even better example was in NYC with Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal until 1991.

If Amtrak ever ends up extending the Palmetto down the FEC to Miami (possibly once the Viewliner IIs are introduced), then they will have to go to AAF's Downtown Station (at least temporarily) until TriRail ever builds that rail connection to link the CSX and FEC line somewhere in South Florida. Even with the re-introduction of the sleeper, the Palmetto would probably have a much different consist than the other Florida Silver Service trains (probably only 1 sleeper if same schedule north of Savannah is kept) and means that it won't have to be maintained at Hialeah.

 

[Anderson]

Boston is a good example. I guess the best example there would be if you had a stray Regional or two serving BON instead of BOS.

Of course, it is entirely possible that the solution to this will end up being some clunky backup move somewhere in South Florida. I know there are connections between FEC and CSX (one is a few miles north of the West Palm Beach station), so you could back the train up from the FEC line to the CSX line and have it proceed south from there.

 

[edjbox]

I saw the connection between FEC and CSX on a map, but it needs some work. Based on several articles I've read, they will first rehab the existing section from CSX to FEC and then add a brand new connection from the FEC to the CSX just south on 25th street. So there won't be a need for a backup move.

 

[jis]

Where is there any mention of extending Palmetto to anywhere? The only mention in any official documents that I have seen for Amtrak service on FEC involves splitting one or both the Silvers at JAX. Could someone point me to any document that speaks of extending Palmetto that is sourced from Amtrak? If not I'd just treat that as someone's personal fantasy for the time being.

For reference you can see one of the several options of schedule that appear in the Service Development Plan as in the Option C Schedule.

All of the proposed schedules involve splitting either one or both Silvers at JAX to run a section down the FEC. No mention of Palmetto anywhere. There is mention of adding additional Sleepers to the Silvers. It is higky unlikely that Florida will fund anything that runs through Flroida in the middle of the night. Not until there are half a dozen daytime trains running first.

I also do not believe Amtrak will start any service on FEC until there is a crossover from FEC to CSX that is something other than using an industrial siding lead. It just ain't gonna happen. Also not to mention, there will be no service until there are stations.

BTW, this 2006 FDOT Vision Plan is interesting, specially to put the AAF project within a broader context.

 

[Brian_tampa]

A good discussion between Mr. Michael Reininger (AAF Pres of development) and an opponent from the Martin County Taxpayer Association:

http://www.wptv.com/news/political/elections-local/to-the-point-sunday-june-1-2014-the-debate-over-all-aboard-florida

Alot of misinformation out there in regards to negative impacts on road crossings, drawbridges, etc... But it is good to see AAF finally finding their voice and mounting their own PR campaign in the past month or so.

One bit of info that has come out several times in the past month is that with or without a RRIF loan, AAF plans to move ahead. Not sure what impact that has on the EIS if they don't get the RRIF loan. Would that mean that for the existing rail corridor up to Cocoa, that minimal studies and mitigation would be required if they used only private money? I understand that the new ROW from Cocoa to Orlando would require an EIS no matter what happens financially.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Where is there any mention of extending Palmetto to anywhere? The only mention in any official documents that I have seen for Amtrak service on FEC involves splitting one or both the Silvers at JAX. Could someone point me to any document that speaks of extending Palmetto that is sourced from Amtrak? If not I'd just treat that as someone's personal fantasy for the time being.

For reference you can see one of the several options of schedule that appear in the Service Development Plan as in the Option C Schedule.

All of the proposed schedules involve splitting either one or both Silvers at JAX to run a section down the FEC. No mention of Palmetto anywhere. There is mention of adding additional Sleepers to the Silvers. It is higky unlikely that Florida will fund anything that runs through Flroida in the middle of the night. Not until there are half a dozen daytime trains running first.

I also do not believe Amtrak will start any service on FEC until there is a crossover from FEC to CSX that is something other than using an industrial siding lead. It just ain't gonna happen. Also not to mention, there will be no service until there are stations.

BTW, this 2006 FDOT Vision Plan is interesting, specially to put the AAF project within a broader context.

Yes I have been aware of this study for several years since the HSR proposal between Tampa and Orlando back in 2009. It is amazing that AAF basically is copying the Coastal Route detailed on page 12. I think phase II is what AAF will ultimately look like in another 10-15 years. I know that AAF has been in contact with FDOT in regards to ensuring that the HSR envelop on I-4 is intact between Orlando and Tampa. Several FDOT projects in the next 10 years could impact that envelop and AAF wants it to be saved.

 

[cirdan]

Tough question. On the one hand, in an attempt to avoid STB oversight, AAF stated that they have no plans to through-ticket with Amtrak. However, it does seem likely that there would be some connectivity in Jacksonville (should that line come to pass) whether AAF wants it or not, since the two station locations are relatively close.

As to an Amtrak train using the FEC tracks, that is another tricky question. It is highly likely that Amtrak would want to run all LD trains into their new station at the airport (and not AAF's station downtown), if only for maintenance reasons. They would probably want to cross back to the present Amtrak line as far north as possible, since having one train stop at one station and another stop elsewhere would confuse people...that sort of situation hasn't been a "thing" in 40 years. AAF being at one station and Amtrak at another is one thing, but having AAF at one station, some Amtrak trains at the other...and then one odd Amtrak train at the AAF station? Cue confusion.

To be fair, in some places this would be more of an issue than others. In West Palm Beach, the FEC station appears to be planned for a site roughly 1500 feet from the present Amtrak station, so straightening out a mix-up would involve less of a walk than some airport terminals involve. In Fort Lauderdale, the distance would be more like a mile. Miami and Orlando provide the biggest messes: Miami would be around 5-6 miles, and Orlando...is roughly the same distance in terms of travel time from the Orlando and Kissimmee stations (which is to say, around 20 minutes each, depending on how they ultimately sort out the parking lots at the Orlando Airport Station...bear in mind that the airport is like 4-5 miles across, so the south entrance is closer to Kissimmee while the north entrance is closer to Orlando).

I've always wondered why Amtrak's station of choice in Miami is the airport and not a downtown location. Do many people really connect from flights to the Silver Services? Ideally trains would serve both locations, but looking at the map I see it's pretty difficult to find a route that serves both, even if you don't mind multiple backup moves and do manage to get full cooperation of the freight railroads.

 

[cirdan]

All Aboard Florida is not thinking small or modest for the Miami downtown station (well, terminal to be precise). Miami Herald: Miami-Orlando train executives unveil plans for massive downtown station, shops. There are full size renderings with the article. Excerpt:

All Aboard Florida revealed plans Wednesday for the flagship station of its proposed cross-state passenger-train service, a shimmering, four-block-long labyrinth of shops, restaurant, offices and, oh yes, tracks, perched on a floating platform in downtown Miami.

The 50-foot-tall platform is part of an 11.2-acre development that stretches from just east of Government Center to the Overtown Metrorail stop. It’s topped by three towers varying in height from 15 to 28 stories, and flanked by an 80-story skyscraper.

All Aboard Florida executives and city officials believe the station complex, about 3 million square feet, will spur commercial development for miles in all directions as well as become an iconic city landmark like the San Francisco Bay Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge or New York’s Grand Central Station.

Wow, if those rendering are anything like what the final structure will resemble, that will be one impressive station.

A pity there aren't any track level renderings. I wonder how many tracks they are planning to provide, and whether they will be able to handle future service expansion.