Coast Starlight SUSPENDED entire route (1-24-08)

[WhoozOn1st]

Oh, come on. Just import a bunch of Chinese laborers, give them shovels, wheelbarrows, and black powder, and the line would be open in a matter of days. Ask the Big Four!

Racist comments aside, do you really thinking blowing-up mud is going to get somewhere?

Not racist. That's the way it was done, pal. No pile drivers, grout injectors, armies of mechanical earth movers. Maybe you need to read a bit about how the line was built.

 

[wayman]

Oh, come on. Just import a bunch of Chinese laborers, give them shovels, wheelbarrows, and black powder, and the line would be open in a matter of days. Ask the Big Four!

Racist comments aside, do you really thinking blowing-up mud is going to get somewhere?

Not racist. That's the way it was done, pal. No pile drivers, grout injectors, armies of mechanical earth movers. Maybe you need to read a bit about how the line was built.

Oh, I'm jus' a mud-miner

From the hills a' North Caroliner

I been minin' mud since I was barely three!

Oh, there ain't any mud any finer

Than the mud a' North Caroliner

So come on, baby, an' mine some mud with me!

[chorus is completely irreproducible in text, sorry]

 

[singwith]

Oh, come on. Just import a bunch of Chinese laborers, give them shovels, wheelbarrows, and black powder, and the line would be open in a matter of days. Ask the Big Four!

Racist comments aside, do you really thinking blowing-up mud is going to get somewhere?

Not racist. That's the way it was done, pal. No pile drivers, grout injectors, armies of mechanical earth movers. Maybe you need to read a bit about how the line was built.

Yea, every time you ride on trains, you better thank them. I bet you do.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

This cancellation may help with the Pacific Parlour Car project. I don't know how many cars Beech Grove can refurbish or what the time frame is, but it might help get the train ready on time for the May relaunch if they don't have to rotate the cars out one at a time. At least something good may come of this!

 

[PRR 60]

Not racist. That's the way it was done, pal. No pile drivers, grout injectors, armies of mechanical earth movers. Maybe you need to read a bit about how the line was built.

They did not have to deal with wet volcanic soils that had just slipped down the mountain and were still unstable, plus the employer back then was not particularly in touch with employee safety concerns. At that time losing a few workers was simply a cost of business, and not a particularly major cost either.

The issue here is not the volume of material that has to be moved but the continuing instability of the soil mass. Once a large landslide takes place a surface called a slip plane is established. That is the point where the moving soil slid over the stationary material underneath. In the immediate aftermath of a slide the slip plane remains very weak. Volcanic soils get very slippery when they are wet making the slip plane even weaker. Until the adhesion between the materials at the slip plane gets to the point that the slide is stable there continues to be a risk that the slide will move again maybe even more massively. You simply cannot put people onto the slide while that risk exists. The Union Pacific geologists will have to make the call that the slide is stable before the earth moving can begin. That could be today, next week, or next month.

 

[Trogdor]

Hopefully, they'll be able to take care of this sooner rather than later. The route through Oregon (in fact, I think in the very location where this mudslide occurred) is, IMO, the most scenic part of the Coast Starlight's route.

I mean, sure, riding along the Pacific Ocean in southern California is nice and all, but traveling up through the mountains is simply beyond beautiful.

 

[WICT106]

It makes me wonder what would have to happen in order for Amtrak to re route the train via BNSF's Interior Gateway, through Bieber and then Bend, OR ? One can always dream, can't one?

I'm not being that serious, of course.

 

[Rafi]

There are some aerial photos of the slide posted at another rail discussion site, and this is one huge mess. I'm a registered engineer who does geotechnical design (soils, rock and foundations) in conjunction with my structural role. Based on those photos and what I know of the soils and geology of the area, this slide will take a long, long time to be cleaned up. It appears unstable as it sits and may have placed the UP roadbed in the area in jeopardy of being completely lost.
My thoughts are with the UP civil engineers and geologists who are faced with this calamity. I would not know where to start other than to assemble an army of pile drivers, grout injectors, and earth movers and hope for dry weather and a lot of luck. They have to stabilize the entire side of a mountain above and below the tracks before even attempting to re-establish the roadbed and rail. I hope I'm overly pessimistic, but from what I see we are talking weeks, not days, and hopefully only weeks, not months.

Can you provide a link to the photos?

On a related note, this brings me to a question about the cancellation of the Starlight that's been bouncing around in my head. I think I know the answer, but I'm hoping someone on the board might know for sure:

In looking at Google Earth, I'm seeing a rail line that heads south from Eugene, through Medford, and then over to Dunsmuir. In fact, NARP, in its recent "Grid and Gateway" proposal, identifies this route as one of the new routes the nation needs to have in regular passenger service. If UP's engineers and geologists determine that it's going to take months and not weeks to get the track rebuilt, how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?

Rafi

 

[wayman]

how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?

Looking at Google Maps, there's about a twenty-mile stretch near Mccredie Springs (just past Hills Creek Lake) where the track does one heck of a series of hairpin turns:

What's the grade there? And that's not far south of Oakridge (named as the location of the mudslide here). Was the slide in that stretch? Is there a map of exactly where it was?

Or, translated onto the Transamerica map, you're basically floating the idea of building the (western) two-segment flat connection between Portland and Medford to replace the (eastern) two-segment mountain connection:

(Sure, in real life the two routes don't meet again until Dunsmuir, and the Medford route probably isn't completely flat either. But it sort of translates.)

If Medford ever became a stop on the CS, that would help towards the (pretty much impossible, but fun to think about) goal of collecting Amtrak ticket stubs with every Transamerica city (so that set of ticket stubs could be used in place of the cards that come with the game) :lol: Well, and I'm guessing Medford is a larger market than Chemult and Klamath Falls combined, by a long shot.

 

[Rafi]

Looking at Google Maps, there's about a twenty-mile stretch near Mccredie Springs (just past Hills Creek Lake) where the track does one heck of a series of hairpin turns:
...

What's the grade there? And that's not far south of Oakridge (named as the location of the mudslide here). Was the slide in that stretch? Is there a map of exactly where it was?

I hadn't seen those hairpins on first glance. Quite a view there, to be sure. Google Earth reports that those hairpins negotiate a climb from 900 to 1300 feet, which as the crow flies, would be over the course of a mile if you were to run it straight, which is necessitating the weaving.

Oakridge is about 110 miles due north of those hairpins. It's on a completely different stretch of track.

Rafi

 

[wayman]

Oakridge is about 110 miles due north of those hairpins. It's on a completely different stretch of track.
Rafi

There's an Oakridge on that map, in the upper left, just ten miles up the track from the hairpins. That's not the Oakridge we're talking about?

 

[Rafi]

Oakridge is about 110 miles due north of those hairpins. It's on a completely different stretch of track.
Rafi

There's an Oakridge on that map, in the upper left, just ten miles up the track from the hairpins. That's not the Oakridge we're talking about?

My mistake. I thought you were pointing to ANOTHER set of hairpins on the Medford line down to Dunsmuir. You're right... the Oakridge we're talking about is the one in your screen grab from Google Maps. As to where exactly the slide happened (whether it's on the hairpin or not), I don't know...

 

[Bill]

I am scheduled to be on the Starlite next wednesday from Portland to LA. Acording to Amtrak and my travel agent they are going to bus us from Portland to Klamath Falls OR where we will pick up the train to head south.

 

[AlanB]

I am scheduled to be on the Starlite next wednesday from Portland to LA. Acording to Amtrak and my travel agent they are going to bus us from Portland to Klamath Falls OR where we will pick up the train to head south.

Well according to the press release by Amtrak, and the information in Arrow, there is no train running at all. And a quick check of the online booking system shows that the train on the 30th is still blocked out between PDX and LAX, as well as between intermediary stations. The busing plan was only for the first 3 to 4 days of the disruption. After that the plan has always been to not run anything and to not provide any alternative transportation.

This plan was worked out by Amtrak and UP, so it would take an agreement between both of them to change things.

So I would stay on top of this and have alternate plans if this is a trip that you must take.

 

[Bill]

My travel agent said the Amtrak rep knew all about the plan,I am still a little leary after reading the press release. I leave saturday on the Cardinal to Chicago to pick up the Empire Builder to Portland and the Starlite to LA...Like you say I better keep checking with Amtrak. This a vacation trip,from LA I take the Sunset and Texas Eagle and work my way back to Chicago and the Cardinal.

Thanks

 

[PRR 60]

Can you provide a link to the photos?

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1585274

Trainorders required a paid membership to view photos full size.

On a related note, this brings me to a question about the cancellation of the Starlight that's been bouncing around in my head. I think I know the answer, but I'm hoping someone on the board might know for sure:
In looking at Google Earth, I'm seeing a rail line that heads south from Eugene, through Medford, and then over to Dunsmuir. In fact, NARP, in its recent "Grid and Gateway" proposal, identifies this route as one of the new routes the nation needs to have in regular passenger service. If UP's engineers and geologists determine that it's going to take months and not weeks to get the track rebuilt, how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?

The rail line from Eugene to Dunsmuir is the Siskiyou Line of the Central Oregon and Pacific RR (CORP). This line is severed due to tunnel structural problems. Even without the tunnel issues, the line is to slow for passenger trains and does not have clearance for Superliner cars.

 

[Bill]

Ok then, I just got off the phone with a very nice Amtrak rep,there will be no bus service or trains running till the 3rd of Feb. on the Starlite.....first agent musta had some wrong info or did not dig deep enough.Now I have to scramble to find a way make connections in LA on the 2nd of feb.

 

[AlanB]

Ok then, I just got off the phone with a very nice Amtrak rep,there will be no bus service or trains running till the 3rd of Feb. on the Starlite.....first agent musta had some wrong info or did not dig deep enough.Now I have to scramble to find a way make connections in LA on the 2nd of feb.

I am sorry to hear that, but I half expected that. Better to find out now though, than while you were onboard the Empire Builder and stuck in Seattle without any alternatives.

 

[Bill]

I plan on calling a few more times with different agents to see what they have to say before I try to book a flight to LA...all I wanted was a kick back ,relax and see the country trip without driving other than the six miles to and from Union Terminal here in Cincinnati.

Thanks Alanb for the condolances

 

[printman2000]

I plan on calling a few more times with different agents to see what they have to say before I try to book a flight to LA...all I wanted was a kick back ,relax and see the country trip without driving other than the six miles to and from Union Terminal here in Cincinnati.Thanks Alanb for the condolances

I too am sorry for the mess. I can only imagine my big rail vacations getting messed up. Make sure you let us know what you do. You might consider renting a car and driving the leg.

 

[Bill]

Printman,thought about a car but after looking at the news I 5 looks like a total mess....it might be alright next week but need to plan now so I think( hate the thought) flying is my only answer. Will call Amtrak a time or two and have travel agent call to see what she comes up with..should have a postive answer tonite,will keep ya posted.

 

[AlanB]

Bill,

Don't limit your searches to LA. You can also consider Sacramento and the San Fran area, as Amtrak can still get you from that area down to LA. So I would suggest looking at all options, both for price and ease of travel, before making a final decision.

 

[WhoozOn1st]

Hopefully, they'll be able to take care of this sooner rather than later. The route through Oregon (in fact, I think in the very location where this mudslide occurred) is, IMO, the most scenic part of the Coast Starlight's route.
I mean, sure, riding along the Pacific Ocean in southern California is nice and all, but traveling up through the mountains is simply beyond beautiful.

I heartily agree, and in my view the ocean views are overrated. Maybe that's because I live on the coast and can see the Pacific any day of the week.

The mountain scenery along the CS route must be particularly spectacular these days, and it's a real shame that some people are gonna have to miss it.

 

[daniel3197]

In looking at Google Earth, I'm seeing a rail line that heads south from Eugene, through Medford, and then over to Dunsmuir. In fact, NARP, in its recent "Grid and Gateway" proposal, identifies this route as one of the new routes the nation needs to have in regular passenger service. If UP's engineers and geologists determine that it's going to take months and not weeks to get the track rebuilt, how likely is it that we may see a detoured Coast Starlight run the route through Medford, skipping stops in Chemult and Klamath Falls with passengers being bussed to/from there, and picking the line back up in Dunsmuir? It seems to be so straightforward to me that I'm guessing it's a matter of bad track conditions on the Medford line. Am I guessing correctly?
Rafi

Absolutely NO way that the former SP Siskiyou Line could possibly be used for any Amtrak detours.

That is because this rail line is a very ANCIENT allignment that has many sharp hairpin curves and is crooked.

Yes on paper it does look like the ideal detour but sadly the physical plant is NOT up to modern rail standards.

It would easily take 24 HOURS plus for any detour to go from Eugene OR to Dunsmuir, CA via Roseburg OR and Medford OR.

I do NOT think that Amtrak Superliner cars would fit thru most tunnels on this Siskiyou Line sadly.

Look at this webpage for an idea about the headache that rail detours over the SIskiyou Line would face:

http://siskiyou.railfan.net/prototype/history2.html

http://siskiyou.railfan.net/prototype/history1.html

---Daniel

 

[Bill]

Two Amtrak reps later and our travel agent we deciced to fly from Portland to LA and spend an extra day there. At least now the Amtrak reps know the Starlite has been cancelled.Off to Chicago at 1:03 am saturday for 12 days of Amtrak adventures