Hoosier State goes from Amtrak to Corridor Capital

[Anderson]

Why do I get a feeling this is going to end in some sort of lawsuit?

For what it's worth (and for some humor), when I read the bit about the negotiations being terminated, I misread it as "did not comment on why Wingfield was terminated" (as if INDOT had also gone on a firing spree over this). Someone really should lose their job over botching this...it's been spectacular. My guess is that Amtrak's contract will get another re-extension, followed by some form of transfer (maybe Iowa Pacific will come back into the picture?).

 

[Dedrik]

My computer now shows Amtrak Hoosier State coach inventory for sale after January 2015.

 

[afigg]

Why do I get a feeling this is going to end in some sort of lawsuit?

Capitol Corridor may indeed have a basis for filing a lawsuit. Getting compensation or a settlement is another matter. Neither INDOT nor Capitol Corridor have come off looking like they know what they are doing.

Behind the scenes, Amtrak upper management should be smiling about how badly INDOT has handled the bidding, selection, and contract award process. The HS is the corridor service Amtrak can most afford to lose given its small ridership. This is the first serious (or visibly serious) effort by a state DOT to have a different vendor run the service instead of Amtrak. With INDOT botching the process, leaving Amtrak to look like the professionals here, it should slow down other state DOTs from seeking to award service contracts to other vendors, giving Amtrak more time to improve their position to keep running the corridor service.

 

[William W.]

My computer now shows Amtrak Hoosier State coach inventory for sale after January 2015.

Did it not previously?

 

[Anderson]

Why do I get a feeling this is going to end in some sort of lawsuit?

Capitol Corridor may indeed have a basis for filing a lawsuit. Getting compensation or a settlement is another matter. Neither INDOT nor Capitol Corridor have come off looking like they know what they are doing.

Behind the scenes, Amtrak upper management should be smiling about how badly INDOT has handled the bidding, selection, and contract award process. The HS is the corridor service Amtrak can most afford to lose given its small ridership. This is the first serious (or visibly serious) effort by a state DOT to have a different vendor run the service instead of Amtrak. With INDOT botching the process, leaving Amtrak to look like the professionals here, it should slow down other state DOTs from seeking to award service contracts to other vendors, giving Amtrak more time to improve their position to keep running the corridor service.

Agreed. There are a few places where a slow transition seems to be underway (mostly on the west coast...I believe that WA/OR and CA do want to transition to a lot more "inside handling" of their services than they have now, albeit while retaining enough sense to want to keep Amtrak's access agreements intact), but this should slow anything else down for a while.

 

[Paulus]

Agreed. There are a few places where a slow transition seems to be underway (mostly on the west coast...I believe that WA/OR and CA do want to transition to a lot more "inside handling" of their services than they have now, albeit while retaining enough sense to want to keep Amtrak's access agreements intact), but this should slow anything else down for a while.

The access agreements probably aren't super relevant for most of the West Coast operations anyhow; the vast majority of slots are probably already state owned and I doubt that the railroads are going to ask for some exorbitant sum for a handful of slots that are already in use.

 

[Dedrik]

My computer now shows Amtrak Hoosier State coach inventory for sale after January 2015.

Did it not previously?

On HS days they were selling only the Greyhound bus and the Trailways bus connection over BNL.

 

[Ryan]

I'm going to stand by my comment from earlier in the summer.

Yeah, this is going to be fascinating to sit back and watch play out. I've got little to no faith in the IN government to not screw this up.

 

[neroden]

Agreed. There are a few places where a slow transition seems to be underway (mostly on the west coast...I believe that WA/OR and CA do want to transition to a lot more "inside handling" of their services than they have now, albeit while retaining enough sense to want to keep Amtrak's access agreements intact), but this should slow anything else down for a while.

The access agreements probably aren't super relevant for most of the West Coast operations anyhow; the vast majority of slots are probably already state owned and I doubt that the railroads are going to ask for some exorbitant sum for a handful of slots that are already in use.

I'd expect the exact opposite. BNSF is known for asking gold-plated prices for extra slots; while UP is known for refusing to even negotiate, and even being unable to return phone calls (the San Diego Trolley Renewal Project was delayed for about a year due to inability to get UP to talk to them about a few incidental pieces of property which were needed for substations -- this is not even on a UP line!). The access agreements are probably *very* relevant to the West Coast operations, at least where they haven't bought the lines outright. Amtrak's general access rights are less relevant to East Coast operations, really... but NEC access is relevant to the East Coast operations!

 

[jis]

OTOH, Gene Skorpowski managed to negotiate a relatively favorable deal with UP after basically throwing out the Amtrak book of negotiations and the Amtrak access rights, which makes the Capitol Corridor as it exists today possible. It is hard to generalize the behavior of these railroad companies. Gene succeeds where others fail because he is not doctrinaire. He's a pragmatist who figures out what rocks his adversary's boat in a particular situation and then proceeds to exploit any opening that comes up, armed with the information about underlying imperatives, and strikes a deal. This is exactly what he is doing in Florida with AAF now, and is succeeding in deflecting quite a bit of the NIBMY and BANANA carping that is going on in various communities en route.

Bottom line is that the original Amtrak access agreements are relevant on some routes but not on all routes. There are many rail routes that have been developed, particularly by commuter agencies, without making any use of Amtrak access rights, through direct negotiations with the railroad companies. Being doctrinaire and carrying chip on ones shoulder into these negotiations is no formula for success. The worst exhibit of such was the Sunset fiasco, where a deal ready for closure was blown by some pointless bickering just before closing the deal, and we are still stuck with thrice a week.

 

[Anderson]

Yeah...CSX is another case of this. They have dubious relations with a lot of states (witness the Camden Line situation), but they get on well with Virginia. In some cases, I think you do get particularly good relations with a state, agency, etc. that smooths a lot of stuff over. Of course, I think there's probably an element of "CSX, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the RF&P..." at work here.

 

[jis]

Yeah...CSX is another case of this. They have dubious relations with a lot of states (witness the Camden Line situation), but they get on well with Virginia. In some cases, I think you do get particularly good relations with a state, agency, etc. that smooths a lot of stuff over. Of course, I think there's probably an element of "CSX, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the RF&P..." at work here.

CSX also has a long love - hate relationship with New York State, which is sometimes hard to fathom!

 

[Anderson]

Yeah...CSX is another case of this. They have dubious relations with a lot of states (witness the Camden Line situation), but they get on well with Virginia. In some cases, I think you do get particularly good relations with a state, agency, etc. that smooths a lot of stuff over. Of course, I think there's probably an element of "CSX, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the RF&P..." at work here.

CSX also has a long love - hate relationship with New York State, which is sometimes hard to fathom!

That's the other state that jumped to mind. New York and VA seem inclined to do about the same things in terms of their lines, but somehow NY and CSX don't get on while VA and CSX do.

 

[jis]

Yeah...CSX is another case of this. They have dubious relations with a lot of states (witness the Camden Line situation), but they get on well with Virginia. In some cases, I think you do get particularly good relations with a state, agency, etc. that smooths a lot of stuff over. Of course, I think there's probably an element of "CSX, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the RF&P..." at work here.

CSX also has a long love - hate relationship with New York State, which is sometimes hard to fathom!

That's the other state that jumped to mind. New York and VA seem inclined to do about the same things in terms of their lines, but somehow NY and CSX don't get on while VA and CSX do.

Well, NY and CSX seem to get along fine as long as NY State does not want to run trains west of Albany faster than 90mph Afterall CSX did lease their Water Level Route east of Hoffmans to NY State/Amtrak allowing both completion of the double tracking and speed increments to whatever please NY State and Amtrak. But there is going to be a test of wills on the Empire Corridor improvement project for which a DEIS is floating around.

 

[oldtimer]

I think Corridor Capital was smoking some really good stuff, as I said almost 5 months ago!

I think I'll add a tall cool draft to go with the hot buttered popcorn!

If they think that they can have this up and running in 3 months (even 6 months) Ill have what they are smoking.

:wacko: :help: :giggle:

 

[cirdan]

Yeah...CSX is another case of this. They have dubious relations with a lot of states (witness the Camden Line situation), but they get on well with Virginia. In some cases, I think you do get particularly good relations with a state, agency, etc. that smooths a lot of stuff over. Of course, I think there's probably an element of "CSX, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the RF&P..." at work here.

Corporations aren't (really) people and corporations often don't have a character or an attitude either. Even if there are directives that come from the top, local managers have a lot of leeway in interpreting them. Statements such as "Corporation X doesn't like ..." are often based on oversimplification. What response you get in reality can often also depend on who you are negotiating with. Maybe the folks UPRR has in California are just of a different mindset than those looking after the Sunset route. Wait a couple of years and you may find a more amenable person in that office.

 

[jis]

Based on what I have heard from usually reliable sources, the problem was more the Amtrak negotiator at the end of the process than anything that UP did. It is after the almost completed negotiations was blown that UP trotted out the three quarter of a billion dollar deal. I would treat this information as hearsay and not an established fact though.

Yes, it is probably true that the individuals involved back then will probably not help much in doing a deal so a deal might have to wait until they have gone elsewhere. The Amtrak person is already gone. Don't know about the UP people involved. But then again, who knows what is the mood these days in Amtrak's LD BU?

 

[MrFSS]

On another rail forum I read that is also discussing the Hoosier State situation, this was just posted. Thought it was an interesting thought process:

Today was bid opening on normal monthly bid packages for INDOT - total of 50 projects bid. awarded. This is a fairly normal month. Out of 50 project, 5 are LESS than the $250,000 they'll spend on Amtrak this month:

Sign Modernization, Town of Homecroft - $85,000
Tree Clearing, SR 26, Jay County - $153,000
Bridge Deck Overlay, SR 62, Jefferson County - $142,000
Straighten Beam - I 64 over US 41 - $200,000
Sign Modernizaton, Town of Winchester - $36,500

Did I mention that the Hoosier State subsidy is S M A L L P O T A T O S for INDOT

Just for the heck of it, here are 5 projects that are for bicycling and hiking off this months bid

Bike and Pedestrian Facilities, 146th Street and Springmill Road, Hamilton County - $851,000
Bike and Pedestrian Facilities, Calumet River Trail, Lake County - $1,200,000
Bike and Pedestrian Facilities, Panhandle Pathway, Pulaski County - $232,000
Bike and Pedestrian Facilities, Knox County - $650,000
Added Bike Lanes, Allisonville Rd, 86th Street to 96th Street, Marion County $1,800,000

Just these 5 biking related projects this month that would pay for better than a year and a half of the Hoosier State deal.

 

[neroden]

Well, NY and CSX seem to get along fine as long as NY State does not want to run trains west of Albany faster than 90mph

CSX seems afraid that trains faster than 90 mph will turn the milk in their tanker cars sour through black magic, or something. At some point you have to expect that they will simply get over it. The thing to do is to prepare the lines geometrically for faster service, and worry about getting permission for faster service later.
CSX acts like they want to hang onto the Conrail ROW without actually putting tracks on it, which really isn't going to fly, so they'll give in on that eventually.

Everyone in NY wants (at least) two freight tracks and two passenger tracks with minimal crossings. I have to suspect that the argument is really about who will pay for the grade separations and resignallings. CSX made some seriously boneheaded decisions to put signal poles in the middle of the grade; they probably realize now that this was a mistake, but they also probably don't want to pay to redo it immediately.

 

[Paulus]

Corridor Capital looks worse and worse

Brief summary: Wanted Indiana to pay Corridor Capital's own startup costs, wanted them to pay before operations began, the hi-levels were not going to be used, and they were going to use rehabbed single level cars that no information had been provided about and lacked a locomotive.

 

[jebr]

How much popcorn does Corridor Capital and/or INDOT think we have?

 

[afigg]

Corridor Capital looks worse and worse

Brief summary: Wanted Indiana to pay Corridor Capital's own startup costs, wanted them to pay before operations began, the hi-levels were not going to be used, and they were going to use rehabbed single level cars that no information had been provided about and lacked a locomotive.

So Corridor Capital LLC is the not ready for prime time player in this mess. As for INDOT, why the heck did they select CC in the first place? A little bit of due diligence would have saved them some embarrassment.

 

[jis]

Corridor Capital looks worse and worse

Brief summary: Wanted Indiana to pay Corridor Capital's own startup costs, wanted them to pay before operations began, the hi-levels were not going to be used, and they were going to use rehabbed single level cars that no information had been provided about and lacked a locomotive.

So Corridor Capital LLC is the not ready for prime time player in this mess. As for INDOT, why the heck did they select CC in the first place? A little bit of due diligence would have saved them some embarrassment.

Follow the money and people involved, and I am sure the answer will come out. Perhaps just a case of friends in right places for all you know. Idle speculation on my part. Don't have any specific knowledge.
In any case they sure are looking like completely incompetent nincompoops at this time. If some heads do not roll at INDOT it will be indicative of how inconsequential they consider this whole affair to be.

 

[Anderson]

Based on the story, it sounds like Iowa Pacific is back in the hunt, which is a good thing. My guess is that there will be a contract extension with Amtrak while this mess gets dealt with.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

How much popcorn does Corridor Capital and/or INDOT think we have?

We need a popcorn emoticon. I've seen one on another forum.