Pacific Parlor Cars

[railiner]

Please don't flame me for this opinion.....If Amtrak wants to see a dramatic improvement in the ridership of a particular route, at virtually no additional cost, here's what I propose:

Find a way to circumvent the collective bargaining agreement in an experiment. Have management carefully hand pick the very best performing service and train crews that have demonstrated their superior performance and popularity with passengers, by way of compliments paid, performance evaluations, or any other appropriate measure. Put this select crew on one particular long distance route, and see how long it takes for word-of-mouth by highly statisfied passengers to get around and impact the ridership on that route versus the average of all the other routes.

Another way to improve ridership without buying fancy feature cars, would be to simply make a greater effort to maintain the current cars, and to improve their reliability and condition. While it might mean spending some more on maintenance in this case, it would still be less than adding 'parlor-lounge cars'.

 

[jmbgeg]

Those are kind of cool. Anybody know what happened to them?

I believe they were inherited by Amtrak. From what I understand, one or two were bought from Amtrak, while the others (were there others?) were scrapped when the Heritage program started.

None were scrapped by Amtrak- all were sold. I think a couple of them were scrapped subsequently to that. They were all inherited, though. The cars were not converted to heritage equipment for several reasons, the main one being that they were Pullman Standard SS-cladding carbon steel cars, which were the worst cars ever built. The cladding proved a trap for moisture, and caused the carbon steel to corrode. They were some of the newer cars in Amtrak's fleet, but they weren't worth keeping around.

Sadly the point of this discussion is exactly my point over time here. Trains should offer passengers paying extra fare for a supposed first class trip amenities that relate to that fare.

You pay less money for a sleeper class upgrade on Amtrak than you do for a comparable domestic first class upgrade on an airline. You get more- relatively real food, a place to sleep, privacy, first class lounge in major stations- and yet you complain. Why? You aren't paying what you once paid for first class travel on trains of years gone by.

On the price comparison, it depends upon how you compare apples and apples.

I just looked at the cost for a deluxe bedroom on the Empire Builder Seattle to Chicago roundtrip in early May. The rail fare and accomodation for one person on Amtrak is $2,296 on the random dates chosen. On the same dates, I got a first class airfare quote of $1,195; 48% less. Of course that delta equaliizes if two people share the sleeper bedroom and the cost comparison is based upon two first class airfares instead of one. I travel solo, and notwithstanding the price variance I would choose Amtrak over flying unless time is of the essence. Better experience, better value.

 

[National Limited]

Are the current PPC's in danger of being retired?

 

[AlanB]

Are the current PPC's in danger of being retired?

The current PPC's are most certainly in danger of being retired. First, simply because of the age of the cars and part's availability. However, Amtrak is also monitoring their fiscal performance. This is why meals are being served in the cars and the wine tastings now cost money. If certain revenue goals don't get met each year, it is highly likely that these cars will be pulled from the train.

I have no idea how well they are doing at meeting those revenue standards, but hopefully they are doing ok.

 

[Larry H.]

Its occurred to me that since a great deal of riders consider their train experience to be a "part of" their vacation, the whole concept of eliminating all non revenue cars is sort of like charging for a fine hotel room and then telling the vacationer they must stay in it for their entire visit. Yes some people choose the train as a alternative way to get somewhere, but the vast amount of people purchasing sleepers I am sure consider the train as part of the experience. Again that is what the train companies realized and geared their advertisements to enjoying the trip. As one of the other posters brought out, the idea is to gain traffic making the cars worth the investment. Of course operating under the amtrak model of adding no sleepers when needed, which is nearly all the time in summer, reduces the value of a non revenue lounge to the consist. A train with one or two sleepers would cost more per fare to carry the extra equipment than a train operating with five or more sleepers. Of course its all apples and oranges now days as so many just have given into the idea that all those comfortable amenities that were designed to increase revenue are totally out of favor with the current government operations based on only how spartan and limited in cost a train can become.

 

[librarian]

On our recent Coast Starlight trip from LAX to SEA, the Attendant in the Pacific Parlour Car expressed his view that the cars may be in their final stretch of service. The renovations done in the last couple years did not address basic operational issues of the 50 year old cars. Our Pacific Parlour car was either freezing, or warm & stuffy. Various items he used for meal preparation weren't working. The passageway between the Superliner cars and the Pacific Parlour car was dangerous, a step down in a dark passageway as the lights weren't working or didn't exist. It is a wonderful space, comfortable seating, etc., but they need to be enjoyed while they last.

 

[sunchaser]

On our recent Coast Starlight trip from LAX to SEA, the Attendant in the Pacific Parlour Car expressed his view that the cars may be in their final stretch of service. The renovations done in the last couple years did not address basic operational issues of the 50 year old cars. Our Pacific Parlour car was either freezing, or warm & stuffy. Various items he used for meal preparation weren't working. The passageway between the Superliner cars and the Pacific Parlour car was dangerous, a step down in a dark passageway as the lights weren't working or didn't exist. It is a wonderful space, comfortable seating, etc., but they need to be enjoyed while they last.

I've been digging around off & on all day trying to find a link to back this info up, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in Amtrak Ink. The Parlor Cars are slated for retirement in 2012, to be replaced with other Bi Levels. No other details were listed that I can remember. I will hate to see them go. I just hope since they plan on replacing them, they don't pull them early. I want to ride in them at least once more, & that the replacements are nice too. :unsure:

 

[Ryan]

I've been digging around off & on all day trying to find a link to back this info up, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in Amtrak Ink. The Parlor Cars are slated for retirement in 2012, to be replaced with other Bi Levels. No other details were listed that I can remember. I will hate to see them go. I just hope since they plan on replacing them, they don't pull them early. I want to ride in them at least once more, & that the replacements are nice too. :unsure:

This was also stated in the 90 page fleet replenishment plan that was linked here and discussed about a month ago...

 

[jmbgeg]

On our recent Coast Starlight trip from LAX to SEA, the Attendant in the Pacific Parlour Car expressed his view that the cars may be in their final stretch of service. The renovations done in the last couple years did not address basic operational issues of the 50 year old cars. Our Pacific Parlour car was either freezing, or warm & stuffy. Various items he used for meal preparation weren't working. The passageway between the Superliner cars and the Pacific Parlour car was dangerous, a step down in a dark passageway as the lights weren't working or didn't exist. It is a wonderful space, comfortable seating, etc., but they need to be enjoyed while they last.

I've been digging around off & on all day trying to find a link to back this info up, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in Amtrak Ink. The Parlor Cars are slated for retirement in 2012, to be replaced with other Bi Levels. No other details were listed that I can remember. I will hate to see them go. I just hope since they plan on replacing them, they don't pull them early. I want to ride in them at least once more, & that the replacements are nice too. :unsure:

If they are to be replaced I hope that the new models have some of the same elements:

-Comfortable seating

-A walk-up bar (with stools would be nice)

-Upgraded dining area

-Food service capabalities accomodating their enhanced menus

 

[PaulM]

It would be nice if they could make a single level Lounge with big Sightseer-type wrap around windows for the east coast trains.

It would be nice to have any type of lounge car on the single level trains. I don't consider a cafe car a lounge.

 

[sunchaser]

I've been digging around off & on all day trying to find a link to back this info up, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in Amtrak Ink. The Parlor Cars are slated for retirement in 2012, to be replaced with other Bi Levels. No other details were listed that I can remember. I will hate to see them go. I just hope since they plan on replacing them, they don't pull them early. I want to ride in them at least once more, & that the replacements are nice too. :unsure:

This was also stated in the 90 page fleet replenishment plan that was linked here and discussed about a month ago...

That's probably where I saw it then. Like I said, I couldn't find the source, but remember reading it.

Along the same lines, I just compared pricing from SLC to RDD, roundtrip w/roomettes (for 2) for the end of March to flying, same time.

It's $14 more by train!!!! :lol: Hubby was shocked!

 

[National Limited]

It would be nice if they could make a single level Lounge with big Sightseer-type wrap around windows for the east coast trains.

It would be nice to have any type of lounge car on the single level trains. I don't consider a cafe car a lounge.

I was hoping that when they ended smoking on the east coast single level trains that they would change the enclosed smoking area in the cafe cars into a lounge area. I wonder if that was ever even considered? It seemed that the "smoking lounge" became nothing more than a storage area after smoking was banned from all trains. What a waste of space.

 

[AlanB]

If they are to be replaced I hope that the new models have some of the same elements:
-Comfortable seating

-A walk-up bar (with stools would be nice)

-Upgraded dining area

-Food service capabalities accomodating their enhanced menus

You won't find any stools anytime soon on Amtrak trains ever again. The Timoinsa dining car rebuilds (the nice single level dining cars with the pink ceiling that looks like a starfield at night) included stools at the counter and Amtrak found them too dangerous, people kept falling off them, and they were all removed.

It probably didn't help either that the crew prefered to use that counter space for a prep area since they don't have many places to prep things in the kitchen.

 

[AlanB]

I was hoping that when they ended smoking on the east coast single level trains that they would change the enclosed smoking area in the cafe cars into a lounge area. I wonder if that was ever even considered? It seemed that the "smoking lounge" became nothing more than a storage area after smoking was banned from all trains. What a waste of space.

Those smoker's penalty boxes are being removed as the Amfleet II Cafe cars rotate through Beech Grove and get converted to Diner-Lite cars. All AMF II cafe cars are still scheduled to get the Diner-Lite treatment. That program was not cancelled when Amtrak cancelled the similar program that saw Superliner dining cars being converted into CCC's.

 

[nferr]

Those are kind of cool. Anybody know what happened to them?I would think there are certain routes that are considered "Premier Routes", and should have some extras like the Parlor Car.

That being said, I'm sure the response would be 'no money'.

Sadly the point of this discussion is exactly my point over time here. Trains should offer passengers paying extra fare for a supposed first class trip amenities that relate to that fare. As has been mentioned the results are often that trains are much more popular due to those features. Even the old rail roads knew that, they didn't just haul those fancy cars around because the were so fond of spending money, they were designed to attract riders and keep them. I loved the comment that the only train one of you could really remember fondly was the one with the PPC on it. Thats the point.

Now for a even worse reality check. If you read the report on the newsletter about the future of amtrak and Boardmans plans, he more or less says that they are not interested in providing cars beyond the bare minimum of getting you where your going. And still worse was the comment that "revenue" producing cars were the ones that they were interested in. I would think it odd, but then when you get government buracrates running things, often thats what you get a head in the sand type of reality. We all know as mentioned that the Empire Builder and Old Coast Star Light consist was what gained them big increases in ridership, not a spartan set of meager cars and poor food service.

You forget there's Sightseer Lounge cars on most of the premier long distance trains. And a full service dining car. To lug around another $3 million dollar lounge car with a full-time attendant for just the sleeping car passengers is not going to happen system wide. Don't get me wrong - I absolutely love the PPC - but I don't see how you can make it cost effective. The only reason we have them on the Starlight is because Amtrak had a few of the Sante Fe Hi-Level lounges around.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I've been digging around off & on all day trying to find a link to back this info up, but haven't found it yet. I think it was in Amtrak Ink. The Parlor Cars are slated for retirement in 2012, to be replaced with other Bi Levels. No other details were listed that I can remember. I will hate to see them go. I just hope since they plan on replacing them, they don't pull them early. I want to ride in them at least once more, & that the replacements are nice too. :unsure:

That is what you call Amtrak dreaming. I don't think they are gonna replace the cars until they have replacements for them. Don't quote me, Sunchaser. xD

I was hoping that when they ended smoking on the east coast single level trains that they would change the enclosed smoking area in the cafe cars into a lounge area. I wonder if that was ever even considered? It seemed that the "smoking lounge" became nothing more than a storage area after smoking was banned from all trains. What a waste of space.

Some were never converted to smoker lounges and, in fact, retained their lounge seating at one end.

Those smoker's penalty boxes are being removed as the Amfleet II Cafe cars rotate through Beech Grove and get converted to Diner-Lite cars. All AMF II cafe cars are still scheduled to get the Diner-Lite treatment. That program was not cancelled when Amtrak cancelled the similar program that saw Superliner dining cars being converted into CCC's.

The last smoker lounge, New York Club, was converted some time ago. They are just finishing converting the last of the lounge cars to diner-lites.

 

[sunchaser]

GML, I would be fine with them not replacing them, but apparently they are 'too old'.

So, if they take their sweet time in replacing them, cool. As long as they don't pull the old ones in the mean time!

 

[AlanB]

Those smoker's penalty boxes are being removed as the Amfleet II Cafe cars rotate through Beech Grove and get converted to Diner-Lite cars. All AMF II cafe cars are still scheduled to get the Diner-Lite treatment. That program was not cancelled when Amtrak cancelled the similar program that saw Superliner dining cars being converted into CCC's.

The last smoker lounge, New York Club, was converted some time ago. They are just finishing converting the last of the lounge cars to diner-lites.

While I won't deny that there is always the chance that David missed it, according to the OTOL roster as of Feb 28 New York is still unconverted. Additionally Charlotte Club is also still listed as unconverted.

 

[National Limited]

I was hoping that when they ended smoking on the east coast single level trains that they would change the enclosed smoking area in the cafe cars into a lounge area. I wonder if that was ever even considered? It seemed that the "smoking lounge" became nothing more than a storage area after smoking was banned from all trains. What a waste of space.

Those smoker's penalty boxes are being removed as the Amfleet II Cafe cars rotate through Beech Grove and get converted to Diner-Lite cars. All AMF II cafe cars are still scheduled to get the Diner-Lite treatment. That program was not cancelled when Amtrak cancelled the similar program that saw Superliner dining cars being converted into CCC's.

Are there any pictures of the Diner-Lite cars? I wonder if they have the same type of booths as the CCC?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

No, they just have a set of regional dinette-type booths.

 

[Trogdor]

Please don't flame me for this opinion.....If Amtrak wants to see a dramatic improvement in the ridership of a particular route, at virtually no additional cost, here's what I propose:Find a way to circumvent the collective bargaining agreement in an experiment.

Will never happen.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It did happen for the Auto Train.

 

[rtabern]

I heard the talk here that the PPCs might be out of service come 2012 and that would really be a horrible thing in my book. During my vacations, I make it a point to try and get out and atleast ride one leg of the Coast Starlight just for the Pacific Parlour Cars. For example, I am leaving in a week for a cross-country train trip and made sure to go LAX-SEA on #14... and I'm planning to get out there in late August to once again ride #14.

While the scenery is grand especially in the Cascades and along the coast, I don't think I would make sure the Coast Starlight would be part of my vacation plans (atleast 2x a year here for the past several years) if they were subbing them with Cross Country Cafes or new types of lounge cars. There is something just VERY, VERY special to me about the Pacific Parlour Cars... the comfort and the history of them... that nothing could replace!

I mean even though the wine tasting on the Empire Builder and the First Class Acela is fun and makes you feel "special"... nothing compares to eating your lunch or dinner in the Pacific Parlour Car... or sitting there at night on #14 sipping your hot cocoa and looking out in the distance trying to find the glimmering lights of the Golden Gate bridge way off in the distance!

 

[cpamtfan]

I see the PPCs going down probably sooner than 2012, possibly as early as this year.

Now the Amfleet II Diner Lites have regular booths like any Superliner Diner, etc and do not have any similaritys to the CCCs.

Now currently the only train that actually uses the cars for Diner service is the Cardinal. The LSL now has a full diner again, with the Amfleet II lounge still going to NY and Horizon cafe going to Boston. Supposedly a time will come when the Amfleet II Diner Lite might go to Boston, but still no word on when.

Now my take on the PPCs, they are awesome cars. They offer great view, good althernative to a regular train around the system. Of course they're noice, but to maintain these cars with so little resources for them isn't an easy task. These cars could have easily been retired years back but Amtrak has been grateful to pax for keeping these soldiers going. I wish I could experience it, but I think the time is coming for its retirement...

 

[AlanB]

Please don't flame me for this opinion.....If Amtrak wants to see a dramatic improvement in the ridership of a particular route, at virtually no additional cost, here's what I propose:Find a way to circumvent the collective bargaining agreement in an experiment.

Will never happen.

It did happen for the Auto Train.

Well the Auto Train is a different animal to some extent, although they still do have an collective bargaining agreement. It however is a different agreement than one finds on the rest of Amtrak's trains.

The reason that the AT's agreement is different is the fact that the AT was not part of the original Amtrak system. Therefore when Amtrak took over the AT, they were able to force a different contract with different rules. Those employees wanting to work the AT had to agree to that new contract. Failure to agree to it would have seen the AT never turning a wheel.

And employees in fact have to reapply for a job on the AT, they can't just transfer in from a regular Amtrak job. They also can't transfer out easily either.