Acela ride: Disappointment and bribing

[VentureForth]

So, though perhaps not "officially", there is quite the queueing and "kindergarten walk" that is associated with long distance train travel in the US. In Tokyo Station, no one cares how long I loiter on the platform, snapping pictures, buying from the kiosk or vending machines before my train arrives. My ticket tells me my car and seat number. Plenty of signs pointing to where I need to stand, and don't even need an announcement - if my train leaves at 12:15, I'll start walking to my boarding location at 12:00. If the train is about to leave and I'm 5 cars away from where I need to be, I board and walk inside the train to my car. No biggie.

Maybe they're just smarter over there, or better trained, or something, I don't know. But here in the US I see it happen all the time where people have no idea or clue that they've just boarded an Amtrak train, while holding a Metro North ticket or NJT ticket or MARC ticket, etc. This is one reason at the bigger stations that they do control platform access.

One of the problems with this approach, however, is the multitude of different equipment that share the same platforms. Do the Acela trainsets even get their own exclusive platforms?

Nope! DC probably comes the closest to having a dedicated platform, where generally the Acela's all leave from the same platform, the last one on the upper level on the east side of the station. But I have on occasion seen a Regional sitting there too.

But at all other stations, there is no such thing as a dedicated platform.

So... and I ask this out of ignorance of how NYP works, 'cause I've never been there...

Is it logistically impossible to dedicate one or two platforms to Acela, one or two to LD, one or two to Regionals, some to NJT and the rest to MARC? Then controll access to Amtrak trains, NJT & MARC individually?

Or do all the above mentioned trains actually show up on any random platform at the will of the dispatcher?

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Though true they may not say "OK, Form a line now", you can't access the platform in DC, Chicago and LA (from my experience) until they open the doors.

There are no doors to the platform in LA. You can access any platform from either end of the tunnel, or from the walkway at the end of the tracks.

There are doors at the west end of the tunnel before the tunnel. They are closed usually, but there are no doors on either side. We just walk down the tunnel and go out to the applicable platform about 15 minutes before departure. I have seen lines with an agent at the doors, but just ignored them.

My remark was intended to be generic, not specific. I should have used the words "Until they lead you". I was explicity told in LA to wait until my train was called then report to a podium where the kindergarten line commenced. If I recall correctly, there was actually a rope discouraging people to go beyond the waiting area without assistance.

 

[Ryan]

I don't think that anyone has to worry about getting on a MARC train accidentally at NYP.

At WAS however, no - such a separation scheme is impossible. If you tried to put up a barrier and call tracks 7-10 "MARC" and 11-25 "Amtrak" and 26-28 "VRE", you'd have delays all over the place. K Tower has enough issues getting the trains in and out, limiting them that way would make it impossible to run the number of trains they do in and out of the station.

 

[jis]

Similarly, there is no chance of such separation at NYP. I would stronglyr ecommend getting hold of the Trains issue that had an article on New York Penn Station. If you do not understand the issues after reading the article there is no hope that you will, so just give up.

 

[AlanB]

One of the problems with this approach, however, is the multitude of different equipment that share the same platforms. Do the Acela trainsets even get their own exclusive platforms?

Nope! DC probably comes the closest to having a dedicated platform, where generally the Acela's all leave from the same platform, the last one on the upper level on the east side of the station. But I have on occasion seen a Regional sitting there too.

But at all other stations, there is no such thing as a dedicated platform.

So... and I ask this out of ignorance of how NYP works, 'cause I've never been there...

Is it logistically impossible to dedicate one or two platforms to Acela, one or two to LD, one or two to Regionals, some to NJT and the rest to MARC? Then controll access to Amtrak trains, NJT & MARC individually?

Or do all the above mentioned trains actually show up on any random platform at the will of the dispatcher?

In general, NO. First, MARC doesn't operate to NYP. Only Amtrak, NJT, & the LIRR operate out of Penn.

Now, tracks 1 - 4 are exclusively NJT, while tracks 17 - 21 are exclusively LIRR. But everything else in the middle can be used by any one of the 3 at any time. Yes, there are general patterns for things, and often the same train will always be on the same platform as it was the day before. However, if anything goes wrong, broken switch, broken rail, power problem, tunnel problem, train failure, then all bets are off and trains can land on any platform that's open.

And this is the biggest reason that NYP typically does not announce what track until 10 minutes prior, even though they know where it is supposed to go. A few years ago I was catching a train with Diesteldorf, a member here to Boston. Chris because of his disability always gets a redcap to help. The Redcap came for us before the first call in the lounge was made, and took us down to the expected track. No sooner did we get down to the platform than came a call over the radio telling the redcap that the track had been changed.

So back up we went, and then back down to the new platform where the train was now arriving even as we reached the bottom of the escalator.

 

[pennyk]

I disagree with OP's opinion that it is "bribery" to use a Redcap in certain circumstances. My guess is that Redcaps would be very disappointed if only passengers, who were unable to carry their own luggage, used their services. I have used the services of Redcaps when I likely could have carried my luggage and that of my sister (who has medical issues, but is not disabled in the strict sense), and I never considered myself as "bribing" a Redcap.

 

[VentureForth]

Similarly, there is no chance of such separation at NYP. I would stronglyr ecommend getting hold of the Trains issue that had an article on New York Penn Station. If you do not understand the issues after reading the article there is no hope that you will, so just give up.

Sounds like an interesting read.

 

[the_traveler]

I also use a Red Cap even if I have others with me who can carry me bags. Sometimes it's easier to get to the train early even if I have a room.

An example was when AlanB and I went to FL for the mini-Gathering. I could have had Alan carry my bags (which he would have gladly done - NOT!), but it was worth the tip to the Red Cap to go down the escalator before the herd!

 

[afigg]

Similarly, there is no chance of such separation at NYP. I would stronglyr ecommend getting hold of the Trains issue that had an article on New York Penn Station. If you do not understand the issues after reading the article there is no hope that you will, so just give up.

Sounds like an interesting read.

The article on NYP operations that jis is referring to is presumably the cover story in the January 2010 issue of Trains Magazine. Gives a good overview of the complexity of shuffling 1,290 trains a day (2010 numbers) in and out of NY Penn Station. Checking the website, it can be ordered as a back issue. If you have a tablet or desktop PC with a magazine subscription app, it might be available in electronic format; for a fee of course.

These discussions about why not implement assigned seats to the Amtrak trains on the NEC tend to overlook that the NEC is a hodge podge of stations and platforms of different length, serving a complex mix of intercity and multiple commuter rail systems. For pre-assigned seating to work, people need to know where they should line up at the intermediate stops to get on their train. And they have to make sure that someone with a commuter ticket does not get on the Amtrak train. Which happens as AlanB points out, I've seen it.

If the Next Gen NEC is 1) built with dedicated HSR service platforms at all the stations with marked preboarding spots to line up at and 2) those platforms can be closed off to keep people with commuter or non-HSR tickets out, then they can implement assigned seating. If the Next Gen NEC happens, I expect Amtrak would do so. Assigned seats and controlled boarding areas is in the reported plans for the FEC Miami to Orlando service, for example.

 

[mfastx]

The assigned seats will never return in the corridor. It was such a logistical nightmare in F/C, that to try and apply it to the whole train would create a meltdown.

How come other high speed train systems all around the world can do this then? It can be done, Amtrak just doesn't want to invest in the technology.

Sorry for going off topic.

 

[jebr]

The assigned seats will never return in the corridor. It was such a logistical nightmare in F/C, that to try and apply it to the whole train would create a meltdown.

How come other high speed train systems all around the world can do this then? It can be done, Amtrak just doesn't want to invest in the technology.

Sorry for going off topic.

Because they're not Americans?

Seriously, though, I'm not sure why it wouldn't work.

 

[AlanB]

The assigned seats will never return in the corridor. It was such a logistical nightmare in F/C, that to try and apply it to the whole train would create a meltdown.

How come other high speed train systems all around the world can do this then? It can be done, Amtrak just doesn't want to invest in the technology.

Sorry for going off topic.

Amtrak has the technology to assign seats. They already assign sleepers. And again, they have the software to assign seats on Acela. They used it when Acela first came online. I loved it! I'd pull up a little diagram showing all seats, which had tables, which faced backwards, etc. And the seats already sold were clearly indicated right on the diagram.

No, the problem was that Amtrak didn't advertise at all, meaning that those used to picking any seat in the past had no idea that the computer had assigned them a seat when they failed to pick one. Or in the case of corporate travel agents, they didn't care to assign seats for their clients. Then these people showed up to board and were surprised to find themselves in a seat that they didn't like, because they wanted a table or didn't want a table, or the seat faced backwards and they wanted to face forwards.

This lead to arguments between passengers. In some cases it lead to arguments with crew members, although in many cases the FC crews fearing a loss of tip wouldn't intervene at all.

 

[AlanB]

Speaking of technology, next time one rides an Acela, look above the seats and under the luggage compartments. Above each seat row is a small "device" that shows the row & seat numbers. I believe that they're not turned off, but the little LED displays used to all say empty. The idea was that instead of using seat checks, as the conductor scanned your ticket he would also enter what seat you were in into his handheld device.

That would then be transmitted to the onboard computer, which in turn would change the display from "empty" to the code for the station that you were disembarking at. This would have made it easy for both staff & newly boarding passengers to know if indeed a seat was empty, assuming that they didn't have an assigned seat.

And if you had no showed at WAS, that information would also have been transmitted back to ARROW and your seat would be available for resale at stations further up the line.

All of that was a casualty of the failure to complete all of the software needed, protests from the crew over the clunky handheld equipment (this was way before iPhones) and a fear of the crews that Amtrak would use this to cut staffing, as well as several other things including the revolts in FC over assigned seats.

 

[Ryan]

You can see them in this picture (not mine):

 

[Wildcat]

I'm all for greasing palms to get better service -- Amtrak and anywhere else. It's not bribing, it's being smart enough to know when and what you can do.

 

[JoeBas]

If this Pre-Check thing takes off Amtrak's time advantage will go down considerably on the NEC, specially given the rather time consuming kindergarten marches involved.

Until the time you "Randomly" don't get three beeps, and it's off to the 45 minute long line of the unwashed masses...

 

[NW cannonball]

The assigned seats will never return in the corridor. It was such a logistical nightmare in F/C, that to try and apply it to the whole train would create a meltdown.

How come other high speed train systems all around the world can do this then? It can be done, Amtrak just doesn't want to invest in the technology.

Sorry for going off topic.

Amtrak has the technology to assign seats. They already assign sleepers. And again, they have the software to assign seats on Acela. They used it when Acela first came online. I loved it! I'd pull up a little diagram showing all seats, which had tables, which faced backwards, etc. And the seats already sold were clearly indicated right on the diagram.

No, the problem was that Amtrak didn't advertise at all, meaning that those used to picking any seat in the past had no idea that the computer had assigned them a seat when they failed to pick one. Or in the case of corporate travel agents, they didn't care to assign seats for their clients. Then these people showed up to board and were surprised to find themselves in a seat that they didn't like, because they wanted a table or didn't want a table, or the seat faced backwards and they wanted to face forwards.

This lead to arguments between passengers. In some cases it lead to arguments with crew members, although in many cases the FC crews fearing a loss of tip wouldn't intervene at all.

I've had a few minor problems out near Williston with "reserved seats" vs "reserved specific seats" where some pax seemed to think that "reserved seat" meant "reserved two seats".

I didn't have to call the conductor, because, greybeard that I am, I just barged in and looked at the seat checks on the overhead and said (It helped that 2 of the Willies were just about to get cut off in the EB lounge and not on-site) -- I said -- "one seat free here past Whitefish" and just took the coach seat.

I recently returned from Japan, where - not e-tickets - but when you reserve a seat - you get "car-row-seat" confirmation when you make the reservation.

Works better.

And as for the boozers on the EB to Williston -- it was so amusing to see the seat-grabber next morning (no- I didn't have to sleep next to him in coach) asking the car attendant "Can Amtrak make me car-sick")

 

[jis]

If this Pre-Check thing takes off Amtrak's time advantage will go down considerably on the NEC, specially given the rather time consuming kindergarten marches involved.

Until the time you "Randomly" don't get three beeps, and it's off to the 45 minute long line of the unwashed masses...

Actually since in the last two years I am yet to spend more than 20 mins on any Security line, that does not worry me at all. If I get bounced from Pre, I go into the Elite line, and that usually is shorter and moves faster because it has more experienced travelers who do not do weird things at the Security checkpoint wasting everyone's time.

Interestingly, anecdotal evidence suggests that all TSA Pre's are not equal. Initially I had qualified for the Pre program due to status at United, and I was too lazy to look up my Global Entry number and file it with United. In that state I was getting a 30% to 40% rejection rate on Pre. Then I got off my lazy butt, logged into GOES and recovered by Global Entry number and entered it into my United profile. Since then I have had 100% run rate at Pre, i.e. no rejections so far. I have read on fliertalk that there is at most of the order of 10% rejection rate with GOES, if that.

One should remember though that random rejections are still possible and Pre also does not apply to international flights.

On the flip side on the NEC, just in order to get good seats typically out of Boston or Washington, I end up standing in line for 20 mins or more anyway, so even without TSA, effectively time spent waiting to board turns out to be about the same. In case of airlines at boarding gate I don't have to wait since I don;t even get there until just before the gate closes. I can afford to do that because I don;t carry huge hand baggage and I know exactly which seat I will have.

At the end of the day I love to ride trains and planes, so I tend to have a relatively balanced view of these sorts of things and deal with them as they come.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I recall back in the 70s Coach Seats were reserved on most long distance trains including the Lone Star and you got that assignment when you made your res. For some reason I still remember Car 1514 Seat 41, my reservation on that train from Chicago to Norman (and yet I cannot remember what I ate yesterday). Stephanie, one of our favorite Sleeping Car Attendents was telling me about working the Slumbercoach on the Lake Shore and how as soon as folks boarded in NYC they began switching their bunks and she never could keep track of who was where.

 

[Anderson]

So, though perhaps not "officially", there is quite the queueing and "kindergarten walk" that is associated with long distance train travel in the US. In Tokyo Station, no one cares how long I loiter on the platform, snapping pictures, buying from the kiosk or vending machines before my train arrives. My ticket tells me my car and seat number. Plenty of signs pointing to where I need to stand, and don't even need an announcement - if my train leaves at 12:15, I'll start walking to my boarding location at 12:00. If the train is about to leave and I'm 5 cars away from where I need to be, I board and walk inside the train to my car. No biggie.

Maybe they're just smarter over there, or better trained, or something, I don't know. But here in the US I see it happen all the time where people have no idea or clue that they've just boarded an Amtrak train, while holding a Metro North ticket or NJT ticket or MARC ticket, etc. This is one reason at the bigger stations that they do control platform access.

One of the problems with this approach, however, is the multitude of different equipment that share the same platforms. Do the Acela trainsets even get their own exclusive platforms?

Nope! DC probably comes the closest to having a dedicated platform, where generally the Acela's all leave from the same platform, the last one on the upper level on the east side of the station. But I have on occasion seen a Regional sitting there too.

But at all other stations, there is no such thing as a dedicated platform.

Alan,

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and actually blame MNRR for some of this. The problem is that everyone seems to be using a variant on the same blessed color scheme of red, white, and/or blue these days...I can see why an exhausted MNRR traveler might see an Amtrak train, have a brain fade, and board thinking (incorrectly and obviously so to a foamer...but to an exhausted businessman on the back end of a lousy 10-hour day, not so much) that it's a mixed CT/NY set. At the very least, someone needs to start talking about more distinguishable color schemes than you've got now, even if it involves dragging out some of the old New Haven and New York Central paint jobs.

And I'm going to argue that it was far worse 20 years ago, when MARC and VRE were also using ex-Amtrak single-level cars. Again, VRE uses this red color scheme, MARC uses a blue-heavy one, and Amtrak is somewhere in the middle; throw in a bunch of Heritage cars...and even now, MARC's electric engines are basically indistinguishable from Amtrak's.

 

[jis]

Really? Someone can get confused between MNRR Orange and Amtrak Red/Blue/White? If you say so..... I guess

Frankly I don't think that those that get confused even notice the color. Afterall they don't even notice whether the train is a single decker or double decker and get confused between NJT disco-stripes and Amtrak too, all the time.

 

[PRR 60]

Really? Someone can get confused between MNRR Orange and Amtrak Red/Blue/White? If you say so..... I guess

Frankly I don't think that those that get confused even notice the color. Afterall they don;t even notice whether the train is a single decker or double decker and get confused between NJT disco-stripes and Amtrak too, all the time.

And it's not just commuter passengers boarding Amtrak by mistake. I was on a Trenton-bound NJT NEC where a woman boarded at Metropark thinking it was the Amtrak NE Regional to Richmond. Oops. Her Regional flew by us on Track 3 somewhere between New Brunswick and Princeton Junction. The NJT conductor was kind and let her ride on the Trenton at no charge. She was going to have several hours wait at Trenton for the next Regional heading to Richmond.

 

[Texan Eagle]

One solution to this entire misinterpretation worry problem is to probably try something like Indian Railways does at the major train stations. It works fairly well keeping all types of passengers informed including those not very literate. It is a four layer information system

1. Information board in the concourse showing which train will come at which platform

2. Indicator board on the platform showing train name and number. In addition, LED indicator boards at each car position on platform showing which car of that train will stop at that position, for example Sleeper cars S1, S2, S3 etc

3. Announcement over PA system few minutes before train arrival and once before departure "Train on platform 5 is 12904 Down Golden Temple Express to Mumbai" and repeated in local language

4. Boards on every car of the train describing train number, name and destination

If even after all this is implemented, still some passenger ends up on wrong train, God save them

 

[Ryan]

All but the last are implemented now, and if someone isn't going to pay attention to the fact that they're getting on a train clearly labeled "MARC" with huge orange and blue stripes and not the train clearly labeled "Amtrak" across the platform, I have serious doubts that they're going to read a destination sign.

 

[Trogdor]

All but the last are implemented now, and if someone isn't going to pay attention to the fact that they're getting on a train clearly labeled "MARC" with huge orange and blue stripes and not the train clearly labeled "Amtrak" across the platform, I have serious doubts that they're going to read a destination sign.

Not only that, but on some trains (including Acela Express), even #4 exists.

I know some commuter services on the NEC have destination signs on the cars. Don't know offhand which ones, though.

 

[Texan Eagle]

If in spite of all this a lot of people can't figure out which train and car to go to, there is no option but to think that the cliche about Americans being dumb is probably true.

If it is only a small minority of clueless passengers messing out, that's not a good reason to deny the remaining passengers with better common sense the facility to go and board trains without the kindergarten walk at their own convenience. Yes i know you can bypass the walk if you know the finder details even now but i am talking about a system prevelant in other parts of the world where boarding trains are mainly a self service event with little or no interference by railway staff